Posted: Dec 16, 2015 12:15 am
tolman wrote:
It seems more like you trying to find rationalisations to justify only the kinds of pride you approve of.
No, its a semantics argument.
Furthermore, you also appear to be unhelpfully speculating about what sorts of "pride" I approve of. You might want to dispense with that sort of nonsense, because it is only going to muddy your argument more than it already is.
tolman wrote:Even given your idea of pride being justified by [a group] overcoming adversity, while I may not agree with them, some people presumably could apply that idea, look at 'white peoples' going out and colonising all manner of (for them) extreme environments and see achievement to be proud of in that, especially if (as many people do) they conveniently ignore or sideline (or are substantially ignorant of) all the negative aspects.
That, however, is not about being white. That is about being human. If someone wanted to claim that "only white people could have achieved this" then we're back on the slippery slope to racism again. Those things were not achieve "because they were white."
tolman wrote:Unless it's only achieving things in the face of adversity caused by other people which counts.
Well, the whole point of "black pride" is that it is "pride" in the face of oppression by "white people." Although really what it barrels down to is humans treating other humans badly because they are different. However, "we're not different pride" doesn't really run off the tongue so well and when the identifying factor in your oppression is your "black" skin colouration, its not hard to see where this one goes.
tolman wrote:I also find strange the claim that 'white pride' is simply some kind 'me too' of reaction to 'black pride'.
Why? I've explained it quite clearly. What do you not grasp?
tolman wrote:
No you didn't, you completely fucked it up.
No I didn't and your counter-factual assertion doesn't make it so.
tolman wrote:If they were living in a racism-free nation, there would seem to be no justification under your standards for them being proud to be black,
Yes. I believe that is a point I have made a few times already in this thread. Including in the post you just quoted.
tolman wrote:In the question, I was accepting your justifications would apply to the first type of pride.
I think you need to be clearer as to what sort of "pride" you are reffering to here, as I fear you've got lost in the confusion of a semantics argument of your own making.