Posted: Aug 27, 2017 9:48 am
MS2 wrote:Leucius Charinus wrote:MS2 wrote:Leucius Charinus wrote:
Moss writes that ...Most of the stories of individual martyrs are pure invention, and even the oldest and most historically accurate stories of martyrs and their sufferings have been altered and re-written by later editors, so that it is impossible to know for sure what any of the martyrs actually thought, did or said.
As I understand it, you think Christians did not exist until after the beginning of the fourth century and the stories of persecutions prior to then are complete fabrications written in a later period. As I understand Moss, on the other hand (assuming this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Persecution is reasonably accurate), thinks the Christians did exist and some of them were martyred but the stories that developed about them, though having early origins, are false etc. Moss is therefore not an authority that in any way supports your views.
Moss basically rejects (5 out of 9) most of the purported persecutions as can be perceived in the following list in which the asterisk * denotes the persecutions that she believes may have been "historical"....
As I said, Moss is not an authority that in any way supports your views. It is disingenuous to suggest that she does.
I don't.
You think that Christianity did not exist until it was invented by Constantine and his cronies and consequently the persecutions must be pure inventions involving people who did not exist.
I think that the latest possible date [terminus ad quem] for the appearance of the Christian "Good News" was the 4th century, and that the stories of the persecutions were developed later.
She thinks Christianity started in the first century and grew from there and that in the course of that growth there developed historically incorrect stories about persecutions of Christians who did exist. That is a completely different position from yours.
The discussion in OP concerns the nine persecutions not the "earliest possible date" for Christian origins. Nine are listed under nine Roman Emperors. Moss believes that five of these are unhistorical. They probably never happened. In these five instances - with respect to the OP - Moss and I happen to agree. In the case of the four persecutions that Moss does think were historical - marked with an asterisk - Moss and I happen to disagree.
7. * Decius 249 to 251 edict 250 CE re: sacrifice to the emperor with certificate (libellus)
8. * Valerian 253 to 260 edict (257 CE); P. Oxy 3035 (256 CE). "Order to arrest a ChrEstian".
9. * Diocletian and Galerius 284 to 305
and both 7 and 8 do not have very much compelling evidence.
Unsupported assertion.
Somewhere in this discussion above this assertion has been supported.
In the case of Decius his supposed edict of 250 CE is lost; No Christian libelli have ever been found. There is no evidence that Christians were specifically being targeted.
In the case of Valerian, The edict of 257 CE is lost; P.Oxy 3035 is an "Order to arrest a Chresian".
If you have any other compelling evidence now is the time to bring it forth.
The step involves looking at the purported persecution under Diocletian, which appears to be the most well supported persecution of the possible nine. Diocletian grew cabbages. But did he persecute the Christians? What are the historical sources? What do they say?
I told you in the earlier post what some of the archaeology says.
Does this archaeology establish that Christians were persecuted under Diocletian?
According to the archaeologists, yes.
Citation please.