Posted: Sep 16, 2017 6:18 am
I am assuming we are discussing specific evidence that you claim substantiates the historicity of the persecution by Diocletian.
I am aware of only one exemplar of a Christian "house-church", and that it as Dura Europos. Other claimed "house-churches", whether in Rome or elsewhere do not seem to be regarded as certain. In "Ante Pacem: archaeological evidence of church
life before Constantine", Graydon F. Snyder has a section on Martyria (p.87 to 92). In this section he mentions Salona, and the martyrs represented there. But he writes:
See above.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral ... nt_Domnius
Fascinating stuff. Diocletian's mausoleum is converted to a Christian church that is now named after the Christian Bishop of Salono, whom Diocletian had beheaded.
Well that's a good question. Here is what that academia article narrates:
In this instance we appear to be interested in the question related to the historicity of Bishop Domnius, and whether he was, as claimed by the martyrologies of the orthodox church, beheaded during Diocletian's "Great Persecution".
We need to seek out evidence in support.
The collection of inscriptions that you linked to is described as including "monuments originally contained in the Papalic Renaissance collection that was described by Marulic."
IDK whether the Domnius tombstone is from the Marulic descriptions, (i.e. a 15th century collection of drawings), or whether it is preserved in a museum.
That's why I asked ....
EVALUATION.
I am assuming you are not 100% certain about the historicity of Bishop Domnius,
That is why provided a spectrum of confidence as follows ...
I don't think its a loaded question to ask how you would answer the above question.
Don't forget the church has been involved with the history and the archaeology of its "Holy Martyrs" and often it is a case of gong back to first principles in order to understand just what the evidence is in any one case. The veneration of the martyrs, including the trading or relics, and bones and holy foreskins, and all sorts of bullshit, appeared in the later 4th century, and was actively promoted by Pope Damasius in Rome. He renovated the Roman catacombs.
MS2 wrote: The archaeology is all those stones and stuff that I visited in Salona, and that's in the museum, and all the work the archaeologists have done on all of this.
Look again at the pictures I posted. They've found a host of Christian ruins from the fourth century and remains of a house church from earlier.
I am aware of only one exemplar of a Christian "house-church", and that it as Dura Europos. Other claimed "house-churches", whether in Rome or elsewhere do not seem to be regarded as certain. In "Ante Pacem: archaeological evidence of church
life before Constantine", Graydon F. Snyder has a section on Martyria (p.87 to 92). In this section he mentions Salona, and the martyrs represented there. But he writes:
- "These martyrs were buried in ordinary cemetries in a style not readily distinguishable from the other burials."
" ...... precision in dating is lacking."
"None of these covered cemetries precede Constantine ..."
Leaving aside the Domnio tomb, they've found evidence of Christian martyrs being memorialised in the ampitheatre and of martyr tombs being raised over the sites they were believed to have been buried.
See above.
On the Domnio tomb, a bit of his name is missing, but the slab is there in the museum as far as I can tell and there's a date on it which ties in with the independently attested Diocletianic persecution in 304. Further, the name fragment ties in with a later literary tradition of a bishop going by this name martyred at this time. It additionally ties in with the strong early tradition concerning Split Cathedral. Look it up on wiki. It was consecrated in the 7th century having been previously Diocletian's Mausoleum and became known as St Domnio's Cathedral and contains his purported relics, supposedly transferred there from the original tomb at Salona.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral ... nt_Domnius
- The Cathedral of Saint Domnius (Croatian: Katedrala Svetog Duje), known locally as the Saint Dujam (Sveti Dujam) or colloquially Saint Duje (Sveti Duje), is the Catholic cathedral in Split, Croatia. The cathedral is the seat of the Archdiocese of Split-Makarska, headed by Archbishop Marin Barišić. The Cathedral of St. Domnius is a complex of a church, formed from an Imperial Roman mausoleum, with a bell tower; strictly the church is dedicated to the Virgin Mary, and the bell tower to Saint Domnius. Together they form the Cathedral of St. Domnius.
The Cathedral of Saint Domnius, consecrated at the turn of the 7th century AD, is regarded as the oldest Catholic cathedral in the world that remains in use in its original structure, without near-complete renovation at a later date (though the bell tower dates from the 12th century). The structure itself, built in AD 305 as the Mausoleum of Diocletian, is the second oldest structure used by any Christian Cathedral.
NAME: The cathedral was named after Saint Domnius (Saint Dujam, or Saint Domnius) patron saint of Split, who was a 3rd-century Bishop of Salona. Salona was a large Roman city serving as capital of the Province of Dalmatia. Today it is located near the city of Solin in Croatia. Saint Domnius was martyred with seven other Christians in the persecutions of the Emperor Diocletian. He was born in Antioch, in modern-day Turkey, and beheaded in 304 at Salona.
Fascinating stuff. Diocletian's mausoleum is converted to a Christian church that is now named after the Christian Bishop of Salono, whom Diocletian had beheaded.
If you can find an earlier references to the 4th century Domnius that would be cool, but I cannot atm. It looks to me that we have a 13th century literary witness
Where do you think this 13th century literary witness came from? Did some guy conjure it up out of his imagination, or was he passing on a tradition that had been handed down?
Well that's a good question. Here is what that academia article narrates:
- The early history of the Church of Salona is mainly known due two medieval Histories — the History of Archbishops of Salona and Spalato written in the mid-thirteenth century by Archdeacon Thomas of Spalato and the anonymous History of Archbishops of Salona whose earliest manuscript dates back to the early sixteenth century. The latter finishes its narrative in 1185 while the former continues to the middle of the thirteenth century. Both texts are almost identical except some vital interpolations added to the History of Archbishops of Salona. Both Histories, the common text as well as supplementary documents, glorified the Church of Spalato and enhanced its apostolic foundation and old metropolitan status. Who else but a bishop-saint, a bishop-martyr could be a more positive proof of the apostolicity of this Church! And indeed the Histories appeal to this figure of a saintly and apostolic founder — St. Domnius.
In this instance we appear to be interested in the question related to the historicity of Bishop Domnius, and whether he was, as claimed by the martyrologies of the orthodox church, beheaded during Diocletian's "Great Persecution".
We need to seek out evidence in support.
and a 16th century witness to a Papal Exhibited tombstone collection You can dismiss the possibility that I am not sceptical of this entire situation.
I don't know what you are referring to here. Are you saying the picture of a tombstone i linked to is actually just a 16th century drawing? On what basis?
The collection of inscriptions that you linked to is described as including "monuments originally contained in the Papalic Renaissance collection that was described by Marulic."
IDK whether the Domnius tombstone is from the Marulic descriptions, (i.e. a 15th century collection of drawings), or whether it is preserved in a museum.
That's why I asked ....
Maybe we should just keep asking questions?
Does the inscription still exist?
What does the inscription actually reveal and what has been "emended"? "DOMN"?
Could there be any other possible reconstructions of "DOMN" that do not point to this purported Domnius?
EVALUATION.
I am assuming you are not 100% certain about the historicity of Bishop Domnius,
That is why provided a spectrum of confidence as follows ...
- Is this the gravestone of the Domnius mentioned in the 13th century as a martyr during Diolcetian's so-called persecution of Christians c.304 CE?
Certain (100%)
Almost Certain (87-99%)
Probable (61-86%)
Chances about EVEN (40-60%)
Probably not (13-39%)
Almost certainly not (1-12%)
Impossible (0%)
I don't think its a loaded question to ask how you would answer the above question.
I can't be bothered to answer your loaded questions. And to my mind your attempted skepticism is actually a refusal to fairly assess evidence and to listen to the specialists such as archaeologists and historians.
Don't forget the church has been involved with the history and the archaeology of its "Holy Martyrs" and often it is a case of gong back to first principles in order to understand just what the evidence is in any one case. The veneration of the martyrs, including the trading or relics, and bones and holy foreskins, and all sorts of bullshit, appeared in the later 4th century, and was actively promoted by Pope Damasius in Rome. He renovated the Roman catacombs.