Posted: Jun 18, 2020 4:30 am
by RealityRules
Leucius Charinus wrote:
RealityRules wrote:Why do the Pauline letters turn up in Marcion's hands?

Because Eusebius and other church sources suggest they did?

Eusebius is a distant, later factor in this.

The church's first main propaganda about Paul is by Irenaeus in the 3rd of five books of his Against Heresies, starting within the very first section of that book: ie. III, 1,1) -

"Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church"


      Paul did get a previous mention in Adv. Haers. II, 21 where, after a weird rant in section 1 about the twelve apostles being representative of inferior Æons, Irenaeus starts an equally weird s. 2 with a mention of Paul [underlining mine] -
    Moreover we must not keep silence respecting Paul, but demand from them after the type of what Æon that apostle has been handed down to us, unless perchance [that he is a representative] of the Saviour compounded of them [all], [them] who derived his being from the collected gifts of the whole, and whom they term All Things, as having been formed out of them all. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103221.htm

      Is that confirmation that Paul is
      • a type of Æon?
      • "[a representative] of the Saviour compounded of them [all]"?
      • his being [derived] from the collected gifts of the whole"?
      • "formed out of them all"?

      Irenaeus went on [italics original here] -
    Respecting 'this being' the poet Hesiod has strikingly expressed himself, styling him Pandora — that is, The gift of all — for this reason, that the best gift in the possession of all was centred in him. In describing these gifts the following account is given: Hermes ... "implanted words of fraud and deceit in their minds, and thievish habits", for the purpose of leading foolish men astray, that such should believe their falsehoods. For their Mother — that is, Leto — secretly stirred them up (whence also she is called Leto, according to the meaning of the Greek word, because she secretly stirred up men), without the knowledge of the Demiurge, to give forth profound and unspeakable mysteries to itching ears [2 Timothy 4:3]. And not only did their Mother bring it about that this 'mystery' should be declared by Hesiod; but very skilfully also by means of the lyric poet Pindar, when he describes to the Demiurge the case of Pelops, whose flesh was cut in pieces by the Father, and then collected and brought together, and compacted anew by all the gods, did she in this way indicate Pandora and these men having their consciences seared by her, declaring, as they maintain, the very same things, are [proved] of the same family and spirit as the others.

      [a weird diversion]

Back to Against Heresies III.

Chapter 2 -

For [they (the so-called heretics) allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, "But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world" [1 Corinthians 2:6]


Then, in chapter 3, Irenaeus talks about -
"tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the 'very ancient', and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul" [and] "it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority."


There's no, little or vague mention of Paul in each of chapters 4 to 12 of bk III.

Chapter 13 of Adv. Haers. III starts -
1. With regard to those (the Marcionites) who allege that Paul alone knew the truth, and that to him 'the mystery' was manifested 'by revelation', let Paul himself convict them, when he says,* that one and the same God wrought in Peter for the apostolate of the circumcision, and in himself for the Gentiles [Galatians 2:8]. Peter, therefore, was an apostle of that very God whose was also Paul ...

    * it's all taken on face value. Irenaeus is simply affirming Pauline assertions and doctrine as 'history'.