Posted: Mar 22, 2022 12:08 pm
by Leucius Charinus
Edward Gibbon wrote that "The scanty and suspicious materials of ecclesiastical history seldom enable us to dispel the dark cloud that hangs over the first age of the church."

dejuror wrote:The forged letters between the supposed Paul and Seneca may indeed be the “latest possible date” however the earliest date for the fabrication of the Pauline character and Epistles appear to be sometime after c 175 CE.
The writings attributed to Justin [c 150 CE] claimed it was 12 illiterate disciples who first preached the story of Jesus to the world which means that the author knew nothing at all of the so-called Paul, the Epistles or converts.

The earliest extant manuscript for "Saint" Justin is dated 1364 CE and is some form of "Omnibus edition".

The letter called “First Clement” from the Church of Rome c 95 CE which mentions Paul is a forgery and fiction. Many christian writers claim Clement was bishop of Rome c 67-78 CE not 95 CE.

Eusebius produces all sorts of lists of bishops. There is little evidence to get a bishop into Rome before the victory of the troops of Damasus over the troops of other prospective and competing would-be-bishops in the streets of Rome. Damasus kick-started the Latin church and the "PETER-WAS-HERE" tourism business. Damasus sponsored his pupil Jerome, in a lavish scriptorium to produce a Latin Bible. Damasus renovated the catacombs.

Joseph Wheless, "FORGERY IN CHRISTIANITY", 1930

“ Against Heresies” attributed to Irenaeus c 175 CE which mentions Paul is a forgery– a corrupted writing with multiple authors.

I agree with this assessment. Irenaeus is another fake source forged IMO by the (Latin) church industry of the 4th century. All the earliest manuscripts of "Against Heresies" are Latin. WARNING. WARNING.

Essentially, Christian writings do show that Paul, the Epistles and converts were fabricated sometime after C 175 CE.
But, how much later??

Are there Christian writings in the 4th century that mention nothing of Paul, his Epistles and converts?

Christian writings took a dramatic turn once there was a Nicene Creed. Many of the NT Apocryphal writings were composed in response to the political appearance of the NT Bible codex c.325 CE. The post Nicene political context seems to have involved a massive theological controversy over Christian writings. The writings of Arius of Alexandria were to be burnt under peril of death if they were discovered on your bookshelf.

Paul seems to have taken a back seat.

There is at least one christian writing attributed to Arnobius supposedly written c 305 CE where the author wrote nothing at all about the so-called Paul who preached the gospel to the world.
Up to the 4th century, Arnobius claimed it was the apostles who were with Jesus who preached the gospel to the whole world.

Arnobius’ Against the Heathen 1. 55
Nay, because they saw all these things to be done by Christ Himself and by His apostles, who being sent throughout the whole world carried with them the blessings of the Father, which they dispensed in benefiting as well the minds as the bodies of men

Based on the evidence I have seen so far in Christian and non-apologetic writings including Arnobius’ Against the Heathen” I am of the view the Pauline character, letters and converts are forgeries and fiction most likely fabricated by Romans sometime around the 4th century.

Bruno Bauer proposed something very similar. He thought all the Pauline letters were fabricated and that Paul had been invented. He says:

* the writer of Mark's gospel was "an Italian, at home both in Rome and Alexandria";
* that of Matthew's gospel "a Roman, nourished by the spirit of Seneca";
* Christianity is essentially "Stoicism triumphant in a Jewish garb."

I also think the NT is the product of a Roman architect.

What is the evidence that Roman political propaganda has been
weaved together in the canonical Jesus Story Book?


(1) Pay tax to Caesar;
(2) Give Caesar whatever he asks for;
(3) In all Judea it is the centurion who has greatest faith;
(4) Go the extra mile carrying the soldiers pack;
(5) Be compliant and turn the other cheek;
(6) Support the Roman military industrial complex and go out and buy a sword (or two);
(7) the management of money, property and tithing for the church (industry)
(8) the massive proliferation of the abbreviation of "sacred names" (nomina sacra)
is neither Jewish or Greek but a distinctive trait of the Romans; (And so on and so forth.
(9) Codex media which becomes popular in the 4th century was used for the earliest physical
Christian manuscripts. This was very expensive exercise (The Roman Martial mentions?)

(10) Greek "episkopos" (bishop) also means "spy". (particularly relevant in the 4th century)

(11) SETTING: NT supposedly written within the Roman empire (Palestine) - ruled by Rome.

(12) Christianos: Etymology. The Greek word Χριστιανός (Christianos), meaning "follower of Christ",
comes from Χριστός (Christos), meaning "anointed one", with an adjectival ending borrowed from
Latin to denote adhering to, or even belonging to, as in slave ownership.

(13) Obsessive COPY/PASTE from greek LXX to greek NT (literary school) ??

(14) Earliest references to "Christians" (excluding TF) are all Roman = emperor Trajan, statesman Pliny, historian Tacitus

(15) Pray for Romans ("your enemies") on you way to the feeding of the lions

(16) GRAVITAS: Don't laugh !! Jesus and the NT is serious business ----

"'Gravitas' was the typical Roman virtue. By 'gravitas' they meant the type of personality that must be taken seriously; they were serious men themselves and they demanded that they should be treated with respect." --- The Roman Character, SPQR; Kennedy & White (1944)

(90) JC=Julius Caesar and Augustus the son of god


101) The Epistle to the Romans is the sixth book in the New Testament. Biblical scholars agree
that it was composed by Paul the Apostle to explain that salvation is offered through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 13: paraphrasing:

102) "People should be subject to the government - which is appointed by God.
103) Obey these agents of God on earth". [1]