Posted: Nov 25, 2015 3:17 pm
by crank
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
crank wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but how is it that more than one person is involved? Person X hides books, even if others express approval in some way, they are not 'involved' to any real extent.

The person who returned the books said someone else gave them to him, which means at least two people are involved.
Add to that the fact that people around surely noticed this happening, they're complicit in not telling me who did it when I asked them to tell me, nor where the books were hidden when I demanded they be returned to their owner.

crank wrote: I think you need to find out what it's like generally for the kids there. How common is bullying, how brutal can it get? Hiding someone's books is rather tame.

Not if it's part of a larger set of 'pranks' and other forms of bullying.
And not when the person who owns the books gets visibly upset and the teacher asks you to return the books.

crank wrote: If bullying is a problem there, it won't stop without a concerted effort by the whole school.

That's why I want to talk their form tutor.

"someone handed them to him" doesn't make sense, maybe I'm missing something, weren't you observing the retrieval? If he's saying someone handed them to him and he went and hid them, that is a lie, and still means he did it.

He meant that he did not take the books from the victims bag.
Someone else gave them to him and he apparently hid them.

crank wrote: I think demanding students to rat out another one, especially in front of everyone, is not at all a good thing to do, it surely isn't realistic.

This behaviour is completely unacceptable, covering up for your fellow classmates only makes it worse.
I'm perfectly aware that most students won't fess up. But the reality of the situation remains that the only person I know is involved at this time, is the student who retrieved the books.
So unless he tells who else is involved or someone else confesses, he's the only one who will receive the consequences.

crank wrote: You're authority, students who would rat out another will never be decent skeptics, such behavior should not be encouraged.

This a non-sequitur.
The asinine notion of not being a grasser is ludicrous in the extreme.
I'll use the same example I used with the student: if someone hands you stolen goods, you'll also take the full punishment if you don't tell who stole them in the first place.

crank wrote: This wouldn't apply for something truly serious, most bullying hopefully doesn't go anywhere near far enough.

I think you seriously underestimate:
A. How quickly bullying can get out of hand.
B. How damaging bullying can be, psychologically, especially for teenagers.
Things that might seem harmless or lame to you are not to teenagers, especially when they can be part of a larger collection of systematic bullying.

crank wrote: Do you really want a bunch of busybody students looking for their classmates to defy the rules so they can run and tell? That's a poisonous atmosphere.

No, I want people who, in a group, bully someone to fess up who else is involved, especially when they've just admitted other people 'made them do it'.

crank wrote:If it's part of a larger pattern, that's what I meant about finding out about bullying in general at the school. You need to know the victim too, some people get visibly upset over trifles, Kids need room to be kids, don't even think about going down the road of 'zero tolerance', we're seeing how horrible the results can be with such attitudes.

And we've also seen how horrible the results can be with a 'bullying is part of being kids' mentality.

You've not only misconstrued much of what I said, you changed the facts. It's a quite different situation if the guy who returned the books said someone 'made' him do it, that wasn't in your first version in the OP. You have said absolutely nothing to give anyone to think that this wasn't an isolated event. I made it clear if it was a pattern, that would be different, and more serious. I'm sorry you don't understand how a kid sees you as authority, and if he shows real deference to that, he won't make a good skeptic, but it's crystal clear to me. Saying a group bullied this kid, again, not in evidence. You really must not remember what it's like being a kid, ratting out someone just isn't going to happen, not unless you got a class full of busybody weasels. Expecting it is not a sign of being a good teacher, it's a sign of a teacher with zero understanding of her students.

I don't claim to know what's going on, not enough info. It could be an isolated incidence, a harmless prank, hiding someones books is not serious, friends routinely do much worse shit to their buddies. The 'victim's' clear distress could easily be a gross over-reaction, you don't know, at least you haven't given us a reason to think you do. What is the relationship between the 'victim' and the perps? They could be good friends for all we know. A far better response by you would have been to tell the class no one is leaving until the books are returned, and if it happens again, serious consequences would follow. Your scenario spinning with insufficient evidence did no one any good, leaving you to possibly making it out to be far more serious than it was. I bet you haven't even tried perusing the kids social media have you? You don't have a clue what's going on, don't make it into WWIII, figure out what's happening without making the 'perp' into a terrorist, and try real hard to remember what it's like being a kid in school.