Posted: Jan 03, 2011 11:21 pm
I'm feeling misunderstood. 
I get the feeling a lot of people either didn't read, or didn't understand, my OP and following posts. I'm most certainly NOT arguing that there is no innate connection between biological sex and psychological characteristics or interests. I don't know enough about the evidence either way on this question, but I'm willing to accept for the sake of argument that such a connection may well exist, in terms of probabilities or averages. (Eg, a higher proportion of men than women like doing X, so the probability of a man liking it is higher. But there are still some men who don't like doing X at all.)
My question is not whether such a connection exists, it's whether it is (a) purely an objective measurement by society after the fact, or (b) something which corresponds itself to some real subjective state.
The fact that we can measure things as being connected by probability of occurence, and sort them into categories of the most common connection and the less common connections, doesn't mean necessarily that the categories we so define are psychologically meaningful.
Let's take an analogy:
Suppose we study a population of people, and measure the probability of connection between three characteristics: hair colour, intelligence, and tendency to physical activity. We find that:
40% of the people have blond hair, are highly intelligent and love being physically active
40% of the people have dark hair, are not very intelligent and don't like being physically active
20% of the people have some other combination of these traits: eg they have blond hair, are highly intelligent but don't like being physically active.
Now given the huge difference in size between the 40% groups and the various subgroups of the other 20%, scientists and psychologists would immediately define those 40% groups as "normal" categories and give them a name. Let's call them the "A" and the "B" people.
In time this categorisation becomes more and more accepted by society as a convenient way of making sense of things. For example someone can simply tell someone else that they are an "A", and immediately communicate three sets of information about themselves. For those who don't fit so well into either category it's not so easy, but hey - there you go.
My question is: When an "A" person is out playing football, do they feel "A-ish". Or are they simply enjoying playing football? When a "B" person is sitting quietly in front of the fire, do they feel "B-ish". Or are they simply enjoying sitting in front of the fire?
And the main question which to me answers the other two: Take a person who has dark hair, is not very intelligent, but loves physical activity. When THEY are out playing football, how do they feel? Are they thinking, "gee, you know I feel really 33.3% A-ish doing this"? Is their feeling actually any different from that of the other person who also enjoys playing football, but happens to also have other characteristics that correspond to being "A-ish"?
The categorisation into two types came about by studying the number of times that each characteristic corresponds with other characteristics in the same individual. But even if we accept that such numbers cluster highly to certain correspondences, does that mean that the overall category we invent as a "norm" has a subjectively meaningful reality all its own, outside of the reality of each characteristic taken singly?
Or is it just an artificial construct of measurement, that some people have fooled themselves into thinking is real?
I get the feeling a lot of people either didn't read, or didn't understand, my OP and following posts. I'm most certainly NOT arguing that there is no innate connection between biological sex and psychological characteristics or interests. I don't know enough about the evidence either way on this question, but I'm willing to accept for the sake of argument that such a connection may well exist, in terms of probabilities or averages. (Eg, a higher proportion of men than women like doing X, so the probability of a man liking it is higher. But there are still some men who don't like doing X at all.)
My question is not whether such a connection exists, it's whether it is (a) purely an objective measurement by society after the fact, or (b) something which corresponds itself to some real subjective state.
The fact that we can measure things as being connected by probability of occurence, and sort them into categories of the most common connection and the less common connections, doesn't mean necessarily that the categories we so define are psychologically meaningful.
Let's take an analogy:
Suppose we study a population of people, and measure the probability of connection between three characteristics: hair colour, intelligence, and tendency to physical activity. We find that:
40% of the people have blond hair, are highly intelligent and love being physically active
40% of the people have dark hair, are not very intelligent and don't like being physically active
20% of the people have some other combination of these traits: eg they have blond hair, are highly intelligent but don't like being physically active.
Now given the huge difference in size between the 40% groups and the various subgroups of the other 20%, scientists and psychologists would immediately define those 40% groups as "normal" categories and give them a name. Let's call them the "A" and the "B" people.
In time this categorisation becomes more and more accepted by society as a convenient way of making sense of things. For example someone can simply tell someone else that they are an "A", and immediately communicate three sets of information about themselves. For those who don't fit so well into either category it's not so easy, but hey - there you go.
My question is: When an "A" person is out playing football, do they feel "A-ish". Or are they simply enjoying playing football? When a "B" person is sitting quietly in front of the fire, do they feel "B-ish". Or are they simply enjoying sitting in front of the fire?
And the main question which to me answers the other two: Take a person who has dark hair, is not very intelligent, but loves physical activity. When THEY are out playing football, how do they feel? Are they thinking, "gee, you know I feel really 33.3% A-ish doing this"? Is their feeling actually any different from that of the other person who also enjoys playing football, but happens to also have other characteristics that correspond to being "A-ish"?
The categorisation into two types came about by studying the number of times that each characteristic corresponds with other characteristics in the same individual. But even if we accept that such numbers cluster highly to certain correspondences, does that mean that the overall category we invent as a "norm" has a subjectively meaningful reality all its own, outside of the reality of each characteristic taken singly?
Or is it just an artificial construct of measurement, that some people have fooled themselves into thinking is real?