Posted: Jan 08, 2011 3:08 pm
Beatsong, you said,
I would describe that gender is an intangible in the way you describe it, as opposed to not ‘objectively real’. While it will have subjective interpretations, there is such a thing as ‘gender’.
OK, and I assume then that the gender roles themselves are those elusive things constructed by society and interpreted with limited fidelity by individuals? Meaning that we acquire these personal sensations based upon what we experience in society, however we do so imperfectly and subjectively, meaning we come up with our version of the social norm or counter norm.
OK
Agreed
What is this? Do you mean their sexual orientation, homo/heterosexual?
?
OK, but surely this just means that peoples ideas about things are affected by cultural norms? Ie. if a girl is raised in a society where leg shaving is considered feminine, she is highly likely to feel the same way and yet consider it a personal choice?
Agreed.
I do not understand your point. Society is a complex interplay between individual and group wants, there is some cooperation, plenty of duplicity and conflict as this seeks some form of balance. Our culture is strongly subject to our biology, and what you see in culture reflects that. Are you suggesting that culture and biology can somehow be separated and that if it were possible that our biological nature could/should be left to follow its way and for culture to leave it alone?
How have you been able to observe any behaviour that has not somehow been subject to the childs social environment? What cues children and following from a very young age from their peers and adults is a complex topic, and while I accept that childrens awareness of how the environment affects them is limited, they are also sexually immature until puberty, once the hormones get working on their minds its a very different game.
I have not studied this aspect, at what age does this emerge. I would imagine that the moulding and indoctrination of children from birth will create issues if there is some biological urge driving against this, but many people grow up in denial of many things, even too themselves of many things, such is the power of social conditioning.
Obviously gender as a set of social constructs is as "real" as any other set of social constructs. ie, not objectively real at all, but real in the sense that society chooses to operate that way and in doing so, has real effects upon peoples' lives.
I would describe that gender is an intangible in the way you describe it, as opposed to not ‘objectively real’. While it will have subjective interpretations, there is such a thing as ‘gender’.
But I think what I'm referring to here is gender as a person's own subjective sense of "being" male or female, or "identifying" with male or female gender roles.
OK, and I assume then that the gender roles themselves are those elusive things constructed by society and interpreted with limited fidelity by individuals? Meaning that we acquire these personal sensations based upon what we experience in society, however we do so imperfectly and subjectively, meaning we come up with our version of the social norm or counter norm.
I'm going to start from the position that this concept is not real: it doesn't describe any actual psychological reality (in most people, at least), that can't be adequately described by other factors.
OK
As far as I can tell, the factors that contribute to a person's sense of identity in relation to sex, are:
1. Their biological sex
Agreed
2. Their sexuality
What is this? Do you mean their sexual orientation, homo/heterosexual?
3. Their interests
?
4. Their interaction with social expectations about how these factors go together.
OK, but surely this just means that peoples ideas about things are affected by cultural norms? Ie. if a girl is raised in a society where leg shaving is considered feminine, she is highly likely to feel the same way and yet consider it a personal choice?
The concept of "gender" only seems to arise where there is a severe conflict between any of the first three of these factors, and the fourth one. A biological male who happens to be homosexual will have to fight against homophobes who insist on the expectation that men "should" want to have sex with women. A young girl who happens to like playing rough games will be called a "tomboy" and, later, probably be suspected of being gay, simply because her interests don't coincide with what society says they "ought" to be. In extreme cases, a young child can form a transgender identity and insist that they are the opposite of everything people tell them they "should" be.
Agreed.
But the problem with all this is that factor 4 is entirely cultural and arbitratry. There is no innate connection between biological sex and certain interests, or contradiction between it and other interests. Since these social expectations are not "real" - they are not rooted in anything to do with physical or innate psychological reality - the idea of "gender" that emerges from them cannot be real either. It is simply a way of describing the interaction between the real elements of a person's body and psychology, and social expectation.
I do not understand your point. Society is a complex interplay between individual and group wants, there is some cooperation, plenty of duplicity and conflict as this seeks some form of balance. Our culture is strongly subject to our biology, and what you see in culture reflects that. Are you suggesting that culture and biology can somehow be separated and that if it were possible that our biological nature could/should be left to follow its way and for culture to leave it alone?
Anecdotally, I have never known young children to have a concept of their own "gender" that is separate from or additional to these elements. Small children just get on with life. If they want to play with dolls they do. If that is celebrated or discouraged because of the spurious assumptions of the adults around them, then obviously that affects how they continue in terms of seeking reward from their environment.
How have you been able to observe any behaviour that has not somehow been subject to the childs social environment? What cues children and following from a very young age from their peers and adults is a complex topic, and while I accept that childrens awareness of how the environment affects them is limited, they are also sexually immature until puberty, once the hormones get working on their minds its a very different game.
The one exception to this seems to be transgender children, who develop the sense that they "are" the opposite sex from their bodies, largely out of extreme conflicts between their personality or interests and social expectations (ie, factors 3 and 4 above).
I have not studied this aspect, at what age does this emerge. I would imagine that the moulding and indoctrination of children from birth will create issues if there is some biological urge driving against this, but many people grow up in denial of many things, even too themselves of many things, such is the power of social conditioning.