Posted: Feb 26, 2011 3:01 pm
Mr.Samsa wrote:
Seriously Federico - if you misrepresent me one more time, I'm going to report you.
Mr. Samsa,
You know the expression "You can't beat City Hall". So, go ahead and report me, and to make your task easier, I'll even suggest two good reasons for reporting me: 1) For steadfastly sustaining my opinions, and 2) For insubordination.
In the meanwhile, I have summarized your comments on my opinions about why (e.g.) some people are born with an innate talent for music while others are not, and about the respective roles of the genome, the Epigenome, and the Environment.
Here they are:
Mr.Samsa » Feb 05, 2011 7:15 am
….your complete failure in defining "environment" as used in learning theories and epigenetic theories, and explaining how they differ
Mr.Samsa » Feb 08, 2011 1:30 am
I was asking if you understood the difference between the two kinds of environment, and you simply copied and pasted an article which vaguely referred to the environment as used in epigenetic research, without any evidence or hint that you understood what you had copied and no comment on how it differs from learning environments.
Mr.Samsa » Feb 08, 2011 5:49 am
….if there are environmental commonalities, then similar behaviors can be produced without a genetic link. So if we keep in mind that in learning and behavior literature, "environment" refers to the interaction between the organism and the physical surroundings, then we can easily understand how having two organisms that are identical (twins) will share some common environmental variables (i.e. the "organism" half of the equation of "environment")
Federico wrote:
Through this study comes information about how our environment and genes work together to influence everything from attitudes, talents and abilities, to job selection, to falling in love, to aging and health. Research so far indicates that characteristics like personality are primarily related to genes.
Mr.Samsa » Feb 11, 2011 12:00 am
…..stop linking to articles explaining the basics of epigenetics. I fucking understand it, I've worked with epigenetic experts, I've helped them write their papers and do their research, I understand what epigenetics is and it would be ridiculous of me to reject it.
What I reject is your cartoon version of epigenetics.
Federico wrote:The presence and interaction of both genetic and epigenetic traits within an individual, might result in a very gifted or even genial musician.
Mr.Samsa » Feb 16, 2011 12:34 am
It might, certainly. Obviously not without an influence from "nurture" though.
by Mr.Samsa » Feb 22, 2011 4:54 pm
Simple question for you: Do you accept that the brain can grow and connect neurons in different formations, and grow entire brain structures, without any change at all in the genetic structure?
And if so, why are you arguing that this basic, well-understood, process is better understood in epigenetic terms when no scientist agrees with you?
Federico » Feb 22, 2011 10:41 pm
[Under normal conditions] The neurones will differentiate into specialized cells such as visual, auditory, for taste, for smell, for Hypothalamic Rfs, for movement, for balance, but also for memory, for pleasure, for making music, etc and migrate to form specific brain structures without the need for changes in the baggage of instructions carried in the Genome+Epigenome functional machinery.
However, if something happens during the two crucial periods of fast brain growth and differentiation (In utero and during infancy) such as environmental alterations (lack of food, stress, exposure to smoke, alcohol, toxic substances, during pregnancy, and mainly lack of proteins in infancy), these may interfere with genes' function not by a genetic mutation, but by an alteration of the epigenetic control of genes' function, and thus result in some brain dysfunction.
Mr.Samsa » Feb 23, 2011 8:10 am
No, it doesn't "depend". The answer is "yes"; unequivocally, absolutely, without any morsel of doubt, "yes". Without any environmental factors which could produce an epigenetic change (like stress, malnutrition, toxic substances, etc), the structure of our brains can change simply as a response to experiences. That is; there is absolutely no change in the genetic structure.
Douglasr@wayne.edu wrote
Back to the violin playing parents, unless this is very stressful (which it appears to be in Tiger Mom's home!), it is unlikely that the kids will inherit this trait. If it is stressful (the child could not eat nor use the restroom until the piece was perfect!) then the tortured violinist's children could be epigenetically disrupted. I suppose that rare epigenetic disruptions could affect behavior, such as violin playing, but it would be very rare and would have to be selected.
Mr.Samsa » Feb 24, 2011 10:01 am
Indeed, your single paragraph has essentially summed up what I've been trying to say for quite a few pages now (except more clearer and without my exclamations of frustration).. .
Mr.Samsa » Feb 24, 2011 11:06 pm
….the 'environment' in epigenetics is content-independent (as far as we're concerned). That is, assuming that stress from certain training can produce an epigenetic change, then whether we're talking about the stress from being in a violin-driven culture, or a basketball mad culture, or a religious culture, or being raised by an alien race, etc, it will all have the same effect on the genetic changes. .
For quite a while I really thought you and me were talking in two different languages which explained the difficulties in understanding each other. Then, finally, it dawned on me: "We were indeed speaking different languages. I was speaking in Chemicalese and you in Behavioralese. The same words like epigenetic and environment had entirely different meaning depending on which language one used. Example:
Eriksson’s psychosocial development theory
Eriksson believed that his psychosocial principle is genetically inevitable in shaping human development. It occurs in all people.
He also referred to his theory as 'epigenesis' and the 'epigenetic principle', which signified the concept's relevance to evolution (past and future) and genetics.
Eriksson explained his use of the word 'epigenesis' thus: "...epi can mean 'above' in space as well as 'before' in time, and in connection with genesis can well represent the space-time nature of all development..." (from Vital Involvement in Old Age, 1989).
In Eriksson’s theory, Epigenetic therefore does not refer to individual genetic make-up and its influence on individual development.
Psychological Theories
A summary of psychological theories focusing on environmental versus epigenetic theories.
Mr. Samsa, you should have told me before. Actually you gave me a few hints, but it takes more for waking me up.
But, in the end, it makes everything much easier: No reason to fight because we just have read two different books on human development and, as they say, "The twain shall never meet."