Posted: Jul 24, 2011 7:28 pm
Galaxian, you seemed to have overlooked a response to you previous comments : THWOTH @ Is race real?
Which races refuse to interbreed and why?
Are you suggesting here that you could legitimately classify different races of humans as different species on the basis of their refusal to interbreed? Why settle for race being a subspecies equivalent rather than a species equivalent?
This question has been asked of you before, though you have chosen not to address it; what are the 'significant' race-determining genetic differences, and why are these particular genetic differences considered legitimate race-determining factors where other genetic differences are not considered significantly or race-determining?
Can you identify any specific intermediate race-types of human, or are all humans that do not fit into some racial-classification schema of an intermediate race-type?
If the refusal to mate with individual from outside of one's race-group is a race-determining factor what race are those who do not refuse to select mates from outside of their ascribed group? Are these individuals intermediate race-types also?
How do we ascribe race-group status to intermediates who mate with intermediates - do they represent a race of their own by selecting from with their ascribed group (the intermediate group)? What race-type are the progeny of intermediates?
In asserting that a specific behaviour (a prejudice or refusal) is a race-determining factor are you not placing racial-classification squarely within the cultural or social sphere?
What evidence are you calling on to support this assertion? On what basis are individuals refusing to mate with individuals? What is the frequency of exception to the rule and what frequency of exception would nullify the rule?
Again it seems we need to know what an intermediate race-type human is, what conditions apply to their classification and on what basis this is, or might be, justified? If an individual is of an (as yet unspecified) intermediate race-type, that is, neither one race or another, then does this not point to serious weakness in the claim that 'a race' is a biological condition of existence, the fact-of-nature you have asserted it is?
How sure is 'pretty sure? How does a gull refuse to mate? What factors influence mate selection in gulls and how do these factors relate to human mate selection in a way that is relevant to the discussion?
Does everybody who criticises and questions your view automatically qualify for membership of 'The PC Brigade?'
edit: little fix and for clarrity
Galaxian wrote:[...]Some here forget that animals are classed as separate species not just on the basis of being inter-sterile, but also sometimes by simply refusing to interbreed...even when they are perfectly inter-fertile.
Same with humans: Some races by & large REFUSE to interbreed. ...
Which races refuse to interbreed and why?
Galaxian wrote:... So if we are not classifying them as separate species, we are perfectly obliged to classify them as separate SUB-species, especially in the light of the significant genetic differences I've linked graphs & tables to on previous pages.
Are you suggesting here that you could legitimately classify different races of humans as different species on the basis of their refusal to interbreed? Why settle for race being a subspecies equivalent rather than a species equivalent?
This question has been asked of you before, though you have chosen not to address it; what are the 'significant' race-determining genetic differences, and why are these particular genetic differences considered legitimate race-determining factors where other genetic differences are not considered significantly or race-determining?
Galaxian wrote:... Intermediates can often be found, just as with other ring species, such as the northern gulls: At the Atlantic they look dissimilar & refuse to mate. But as we go around the Arctic Circle, East or West we find intermediates which happily mate. Till we get back to the Atlantic again, where, curiously, they have not benefited from the genetic mixing, look different & refuse to mate.
Can you identify any specific intermediate race-types of human, or are all humans that do not fit into some racial-classification schema of an intermediate race-type?
If the refusal to mate with individual from outside of one's race-group is a race-determining factor what race are those who do not refuse to select mates from outside of their ascribed group? Are these individuals intermediate race-types also?
How do we ascribe race-group status to intermediates who mate with intermediates - do they represent a race of their own by selecting from with their ascribed group (the intermediate group)? What race-type are the progeny of intermediates?
In asserting that a specific behaviour (a prejudice or refusal) is a race-determining factor are you not placing racial-classification squarely within the cultural or social sphere?
Galaxian wrote:Thus it is with humans: To some extent we are a ring species; we mate with the intermediates but refuse (in general) to mate across distinct racial divides. Finding an exception simply proves the rule...
What evidence are you calling on to support this assertion? On what basis are individuals refusing to mate with individuals? What is the frequency of exception to the rule and what frequency of exception would nullify the rule?
Again it seems we need to know what an intermediate race-type human is, what conditions apply to their classification and on what basis this is, or might be, justified? If an individual is of an (as yet unspecified) intermediate race-type, that is, neither one race or another, then does this not point to serious weakness in the claim that 'a race' is a biological condition of existence, the fact-of-nature you have asserted it is?
Galaxian wrote:... I'm pretty sure that a very few northern gulls do mate at the N. Atlantic. But the generality is that they don't, & that makes them...according to taxonomists, distinct subspecies.
How sure is 'pretty sure? How does a gull refuse to mate? What factors influence mate selection in gulls and how do these factors relate to human mate selection in a way that is relevant to the discussion?
Galaxian wrote:I'll explore some avenues regarding this in the next post, which I'm sure the PC brigade will deride
Does everybody who criticises and questions your view automatically qualify for membership of 'The PC Brigade?'
edit: little fix and for clarrity