Posted: Aug 15, 2019 11:11 am
by THWOTH
MONEYMUFFINS wrote:I FIND THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE STRONGLY AGAINST ANTI-NATALISM FEEL SO STRONGLY AGAINST IT BECAUSE THEY FEEL ATTACKED REGARDING THEIR WORTHINESS OF PARENTHOOD. THE ARGUMENT FOR ANTI-NATALISM IS POLITICAL IN A WAY, BUT IT'S NOT ABOUT ANY PARTICULAR PERSON'S COMPETENCE IN PARENTING. THE ARGUMENT IS MORE ABOUT CONCEDING THAT SOCIETY AS A WHOLE CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO TREAT PEOPLE WELL OVERALL.

WHILE THERE ARE MANY JOYS TO BE HAD WITH LIFE, I DO THINK SOCIETY IS FAR TOO IRRESPONSIBLE TO HANDLE PEOPLE'S WELL-BEING. MANY OPPONENTS OF ANTI-NATALISM ESSENTIALLY ARGUE THAT SPOILSPORTS SHOULDN'T BE THE DETERMINING FACTOR IN WHETHER OR NOT LIFE DESERVES TO EXIST. HOWEVER, THESE OPPONENTS ONLY SEEM TO DEEPLY APPRECIATE THEIR OWN PERSONAL VALUES AND CONSIDER ANYTHING ELSE AS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS TO BE CONCERNED WITH.

IN MY OPINION, IF EVERYONE WERE WELL-INFORMED ON THIS SUBJECT AND HONEST ENOUGH TO LOOK BEYOND THEIR OWN PERSONAL DESIRES, MOST OF HUMANITY WOULD AGREE THAT ALL PEOPLE ARE BETTER OFF NOT EXISTING. THIS IS EASY FOR ME TO IMAGINE BEING THE CASE, AT LEAST. I AM BAFFLED THAT SO MANY PEOPLE DEEM ANTI-NATALISM AS MERE WHINING.

There's two points I'd like to pick up on if I may?

1. "The argument is more about conceding that society as a whole cannot be trusted to treat people well overall."

Which society are we talking about here? If we're talking about a specific society then that suggest there are specific societal issues, problems, or concerns that need to be looked at specifically. If we're talking generally, about all societies, then we're talking about something which is a function of all human social and personal interactions and the argument boils down to "people cannot be trusted to treat other people well."

I believe we're talking about the latter here because you refer to 'people overall', so your anti-natalism appears to be based on your opinion of people in general - a set of which you are a member of course. Would you consider this a fair assessment of your argument: that basically people cannot be trusted to treat other people well? If so, what kinds of good/bad treatments are of particular concern to you?

2. "i do think society is far too irresponsible to handle people's well-being."

Again, you are talking of 'society' but is that really what your mean? If you can acknowledge that not everybody in a society "is far too irresponsible to handle [other] people's well-being," or that where that might not be the case that the well-being of others is not always handled irresponsibly all the time, then we can turn from the general to the specific and perhaps discuss what kinds of treatment, of and by whom, you consider responsible and/or irresponsible.

I am happy to accept your opinion at face value (assuming I have not misrepresented it here of course) but now that we have had your opinion it would be interesting to know what kind of things have informed it. Perhaps you could offer some examples of the kinds of trust, treatment, and responsibility issues which concern you and have led you towards the opinion you currently hold.