Posted: Jun 08, 2013 2:08 am
Loren Michael wrote:Ihavenofingerprints wrote:Loren Michael wrote:How do we determine efficiency here? Like, what's the intent with welfare and what is the value we're putting on that?
There's a couple of things I'm thinking of here.
First of all I was just wondering if businesses get most of the tax they pay in this area back through people spending their welfare money? But now I'm also wondering if giving the poorest welfare increase the number of consumers within an economy, and increases demand enough to benefit the economy more than removing this area of tax altogether.
I know we can just point at societies with a welfare system and show it works. But I'm wondering what it is that makes this system work, so we can know how to maximize it's benefits or reduce it's losses.
I think I see what you're talking about. I'm pretty sympathetic. I don't have particularly well-formed (specific) views on welfare, but I like the outcomes that I see in a lot of places with what I would generally regard as a lot of welfare.
It's almost impossible to make taxes paid balance out with specific benefits received by individual ratepayers, that's a fool's errand if there ever was one. It occurs because lots of tax revenues pay for thing we call "the common good," such as parks and recreation facilities, highways, air traffic control, R&D, law enforcement, national security, and the like.
I'd like to hear what IHaveNoFingerprints thinks "losses" are.
Loren Michael wrote:
America actually spends a ton on welfare. It mostly is directed at the elderly though. I think there is a lot of room for specific critiques of welfare policies, and I think I'm reading that that's what you're asking about.
Bollocks.
Nearly all Americans who would be considered "elderly" get a benefit from Social Security and much of their medical care is covered by Medicare and those who are veterans get veterans benefits. I'm hard pressed to think of but an exceedingly small percentage of the elderly in America getting a welfare benefit. Until recently, many elderly in the NE received a subsidy for their heating oil, but Congress shit canned that program some time ago.
Total "welfare" expenditures in 2013 look like this, from: http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_ ... ng_40.html
$$ in billions
- Welfare $430.4
- Family and children 112.2
- Unemployment 82.6
- Unemployment trust 0.0
- Workers compensation 8.0
- Housing 57.6
- Social exclusion n.e.c. 170.0
- R and D Social protection 0.0
- Social protection n.e.c. 0.0
The table shows overall government expenditures for the specified fiscal year. Spending totals are aggregated for each major government function.
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I'd say anyone who was really interested in ferreting out waste, fraud, and abuse ("losses") should probably look first at the Pentagon's budget, which s more than twice as big as the Welfare spending elaboraed here, or look into subsidies provided to the fossil fuel industry or big ag. Welfare spending can be expected to deline when and if the econony ever stops sputtering and gets going again, if indeed it ever does.