rationalskepticism.org

4 Hours wrote:

Thommo wrote:The bolded bit doesn't even relate to what I said.

You're talking about energy consumption and its link to GDP, not population and its link to GDP.

Each new person added requires various goods and services, so I imagine that the two are somehow positively and causally correlated, no?

Most certainly. Do you think this means that the only possible way for GDP to grow is for population to grow, because that's what a "requirement" would entail? I don't, and I don't think you do either, or at least hope so.

4 Hours wrote:

Thommo wrote:Economic growth doesn't require an ever increasing population of consumers.

That's true but it does require more resources in most cases and especially as limits to efficiency are attained.

Sure, absolutely, but if you're disagreeing with me on these grounds, you're going to need to point out where I've remotely implied the opposite. I pointed out that Steve claimed something that wasn't true and that's all, I think you might have extrapolated beyond what I actually said.

If you are more interested in having a conversation about whether we've already reached the practical limits of efficiency and energy production that's fair enough - in fact I'd applaud the objectivity - but it's a very different conversation than what was already taking place. My whole point in this thread has been that it's based on a false premise - that the conventional view is that there can be unlimited exponential growth (economic, population, whatever), a far more sensible conversation is out there to be had if we simply drop that premise and similar assertions such as "economic growth requires population growth" and discuss where the limits lie and when we will (if ever) attain them.

The graphs on the link you provided were quite interesting in terms of showing how small the gain in economic activity/energy consumption efficiency have been and are quite relevant to that more interesting and reasonable conversation.

For the record I genuinely believe there is an ever increasing need for (non-coercive) population management, energy management and environmental management, but this does not commit me to the most extreme positions on any of these issues, and indeed I don't support them, whether they come from eco-terrorists or doomsayers or anyone else.