DrParisetti wrote:It is interesting to be attacked and made fun of for claims that I never made.
Ah. Well. You who have pondered how a 'reasonable' person may 'believe' in 'afterlife'. The very first question one must ask oneself about the 'afterlife' is what comes 'after' the 'afterlife'. It's either that or deal with the absurdity of 'eternity'. Good. Let's proceed.
DrParisetti wrote:It is also interesting to note that previous post with arguments and references to evidence are happily ignored.
Anecdotes are evidence? Well, here's an anecdote, for you: I'm talking to you from my afterlife. You can tell them I said so. Just look at my avatar! I'm a fricking flash of corruscating light!
DrParisetti wrote:It is not even 12 hours ago that I repeated that I do not claim that NDE constitute "proof" of life after death. I also repeated that NDE contribute to a much larger body of evidence which support the only claim I ever made:
"based on the evidence, a rational person can believe in the afterlife"
Dr. Parisetti, I don't mean to be rude, but this is just a quibble about what how one is to qualify the term 'rational'. Until we get that sorted, all we see that you mean by 'rational' is 'being able to use rational and evidence in a single sentence.' This will never do.
DrParisetti wrote:Look at the previous post, and see how this has been completely ignored, transfigured into something which I never said and for which I am being crucified.
Imagine that! A 'rational' person about to be 'crucified'. When will the terrorism end?
DrParisetti wrote:Now, back to NDEs-
I claim that NDE are an established fact. They occur. I have provided references to peer reviewed publications.
For fuck's sake, Dr. Parisetti, don't claim that. Anecdotes of NDEs are an established fact. People tell stories, and people repeat stories that they have heard other people tell. The reasons for this are many and varied.
DrParisetti wrote:I claim that the explanations for the phenomenon which have been put forward in the past do not account for it. I have provided a synthesis of the arguments and pointed to further publications. This appears to have been completely ignored (see again the last post...).
Dr. Parisetti, please. The phenomenon you describe is 'storytelling'. You do not seriously expect me to believe the phenomenon of storytelling remains unexplained. Stories are told by people who are nowhere near death.
DrParisetti wrote:I claim that there is "evidence" ("observations of phenomena that occur in the natural world, or which are created as experiments in a laboratory or other controlled conditions") strongly indicative that consciousness operates independently from a functioning brain.
You claim that anecdotes and storytelling about NDE are evidence that consciousness operates independently from a functioning brain. Yet all those anecdotes and stories are easily explained as the functioning of verbal centers in a functioning brain (if as dubiously-reliable memory of what the storyteller describes as NDE). The storyteller is able to get away with these anecdotes because physicians tell him after the fact that he was 'near death'.
DrParisetti wrote:This is where I knowingly touched the nerve of this community. I have dared challenging the holy grail, and for that I am immediately burnt at the stake, together with people immensely more qualified and authoritative than me.
Well, you won't get that kind of treatment from ME. I simply remind you that you are relaying the content of anecdotes to us and calling it 'evidence'. No stake. No piles of twigs set alight. No toothsome fragrance of barbeque.
DrParisetti wrote:I am burnt at the stake not for having claimed that I have "proof", but for simply entertaining the idea and for daring to say that I looked at the evidence and I find it "strongly indicative".
Why so serious? All you have claimed is that it rational to believe in the afterlife. And whatever comes after that, come what may. And then, after that. Perhaps there is a slight problem calling it the 'afterlife', and that you are only being 'crucified' for using an imprecise terminology to refer to an imprecise semantic quicksand.
DrParisetti wrote:- I have briefly described two experiments by Dr. Sabom. Not one single comment focussed on the substance, as far as I know this has been completely ignored in this discussion. I have pointed to a book with the details on the experimental procedure and the findings. This was thoroughly ignored, probably on grounds that "it's not peer reviewed and therefore it's automatically false". An extreme position which which I strongly disagree, and which DOES NOT APPLY HERE, since I DON'T FUCKING CLAIM THAT THIS IS "PROOF".
- I have referred to the PhD dissertation of Penny Sartori, which confirms the findings of the Atlanta study by Dr. Sabom, and provided references. Did I read ONE comment on the substance of it? No, I just heard what fuckwits me, Bruce Grayson and - implicitly - at least a couple more dozens others are.
- I have summarised the findings of the study by Janice Holden, which are perfectly consistent with the three studies above, and provided references. The comments I got were "I cannot read it because you have to pay for it". Not ONE comment on the substance.
Sorry, Dr. Parisetti: You are interpreting what you claim are research results. You are telling us anecdotes about methodology. And you imply that skepticism of those anecdotes is a function of bias. This is not how the research community functions, and if you were yourself a researcher, you would know that.
DrParisetti wrote:- I have not referred to three other peer-reviewed studies on the same subject, because the sample size is admittedly small. I should have, because for me as a rational person these contribute to my assessment that the evidence is "strongly indicative" of consciousness operating independently from and outside the physical body (which, I repeat for the fourth time in this thread, IS THE ONLY CLAIM I HAVE EVER MADE WITH REGARD TO NDEs).
NDEs are all reported anecdotally by subjects who are not dead at the time.
DrParisetti wrote:- I have not even dreamed of referring to the mass of purely anecdotal evidence about veridical out-of-body experiences during (but certainly not limited to) NDEs. This is what people who have had the experience say, and I know all too well that for this audience this is automatically false (fantasy, confabulations, "need to belief", chance, hallucinations, misreporting, selective memory, sensory clues, should I go on?). For me as a rational person, this kind of anecdotes are observations of a phenomenon and DO constitute an element of evidence. As rational person, I don't automatically "believe" them and do not use them to jump to conclusions. I observe that these accounts are perfectly consistent with research findings and this further adds to my assessment of the evidence being "strongly indicative".
The research findings do not report any observations made on the brains of cadavers. Or, tell me I'm wrong about this.
DrParisetti wrote:The few comments which have indirectly addressed the substance I have presented here do entertain the possibility that the reported experiences are real, but basically say
- they happened before or after "normal" consciousness shut down, and/or
- a highly structured conscious experience, strikingly consistent across a large number of variables, and the production of long-term memories are possible when cortex is out.
No matter how you slice it, anecdotes from subjects who were near death are not as good as anecdotes from cadavers as far as 'afterlife' is concerned. The anecdotes paired with neurological data are from subjects who clearly were in the before afterlife stage of life.
DrParisetti wrote:As to the first, this in inconsistent with the available experimental data and with the anecdotal evidence.
As to the second, I consider THIS is a completely preposterous claim. I would be grateful to anybody suggesting a mechanism which would explain it.
What, anecdotes paired with neurological data not taken on cadavers? What are we to make of it all?
DrParisetti wrote:So, can any of the trigger-easy persons who have insulted and ridiculed me (not important at all, just to say this hasn't gone unnoticed) explain to me what intellectual crime I have committed with my claim (MY FUCKING CLAIM, REPEATED SEVERAL TIMES, NOT WHAT YOU THINK I CLAIM).
When you will have explained to me why, based on what's written in this post, I am not rational, and therefore not even worth talking to, perhaps we can proceed and I can develop my argument further.
Far be it from me to try to convince you that you are rational or not. If you are uneasy that no one accepts your interpretation of what constitutes evidence for the afterlife, how is that a cause of concern for you?