Does consciousness survive death?
Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron
Lion IRC wrote:
BTW – The placebo afterlife and spiritual immune system is just an idea about death, the soul and the afterlife for consideration of atheists and agnostics. It’s a thought experiment. Nothing more. Make of it what you will. I wont be debating theology or religious doctrines in this thread. I will read any further comments or responses with interest but don’t bother fisking me or trying to “crash test” my Christian comfort zone. I'm alright Jack! Stress free thank God.
darwin2 wrote:byofrcs wrote:darwin2 wrote:....
Sir, you are stating your own personal subjective beliefs on this issue. Your belief on this issue is not a scientific fact. Any rational scientist will tell you that you are wrong. Subjectively they may believe you are correct. However objectively they will tell you your statement is incorrect.
Which statement ? Be precise. Your Emmental of an OP has so many holes in it we wouldn't want something important falling through the gaps.
Here are the precise statements you asked for.
To me when that information is destroyed then your are dead and there is no mechanism in this universe that can recover that information. Same as erasing a hard disk. The information is gone forever. Objectively speaking, this is false unless he knows everything about the universe.
Face facts - you're going to die and you will cease to exist. Objectively speaking this statement is also false. Yes my physical body is going to die but it is possible my consciousness may continue. Even Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens would agree with me.
Lion IRC wrote:Everybody faces their own death. It’s the ultimate moment of Truth which gets closer each day.
Atheists and theists alike BOTH have coping mechanisms - one says it doesn’t matter, death is NOT the end. The other says it doesn’t matter death IS the end. Both are voluntarily held views about death.
But what if life after death was simply a matter of “believing” in the soul? Your own personal continuation of a journey of existence in a reality which your “soul” can either keep traveling through or, if it is tired, simply give up the journey.
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Lion IRC wrote:
But what if...
What if... What if...
What if... What if...
But what if... What if...
Well, what if...
ChasM wrote:... PS Lion, psychoanalysis has been pretty much discredited as a cure for mental illness. Drugs work much better than words.
And some of us have faced it on more than one occasion.Lion IRC wrote:Everybody faces their own death. It’s the ultimate moment of Truth which gets closer each day.
Well, I've always felt it mattered. Whether the thought of those I'd be leaving behind, wife & kids trying to cope without husband/dad, or simply the thought that I wasn't going to be around to see my kids grow up etc. I thought it mattered a great deal. I don't know how many dead bodies you've seen, but I've seen quite a few. The thought that I might be one of them was a fairly disturbing thought. It mattered. Death might have been the end of me, and it might have been pretty grisly, but the main reason it mattered is because it isn't the end; someone is left picking up the pieces, either literally, (and) or metaphorically. My lack of belief in any kind of afterlife isn't a coping mechanism; it just is. I have no reason to think that death is anything but the end of individuality.Lion IRC wrote:Atheists and theists alike BOTH have coping mechanisms - one says it doesn’t matter, death is NOT the end. The other says it doesn’t matter death IS the end. Both are voluntarily held views about death.
Or what if life after death was simply a matter of not believing in a soul? What if your continuation after bodily death was based on a lack of positive expectation? Those expecting something after death, never quite sure whether it'll be heaven or hell for them, in their deathly terror might find that their soul dies too. Those expecting nothing, pure oblivion, might be surprised when they look around the Happy Hunting Grounds, or Elysium Fields or The Summerlands. Yeah, what if?Lion IRC wrote:But what if life after death was simply a matter of “believing” in the soul? Your own personal continuation of a journey of existence in a reality which your “soul” can either keep traveling through or, if it is tired, simply give up the journey.
What if, what if ... Well, what if exercising your soul tires it out? What if not praying & associated mumbo-jumbo nonsense left the soul rested & able to enter the next step in its life-course. What if praying to God was a big fucking mistake, 'cos Zeus got pissed off with people who got his name wrong? What if ...Lion IRC wrote:What if the afterlife is a placebo effect and the only thing your soul needs to survive the physical death of the body is conscious exercising of your soul - psyche, ego, chi, free will, mind, anima/animus, etc, call it whatever you like - by doing things which atheists would say are a waste of time (Praying, believing God and the afterlife.) What if the strong soul did not "die" and the sickly weak one did? The ne plus ultra of placebo effects.
This isn't about simply believing. This is about a material process (thinking) engaging with a material process (overt bodily action). Forget the nonsense duality of mind & body. These are all one system. That the brain can over-ride normal limits on bodily actions, usually involving exceeding the limits that pain otherwise imposes, is nothing mysterious. It is not evidence for a soul.Lion IRC wrote:There is ample evidence of psycho-cybernetics, where people who, for no other apparent reason, were able to achieve feats of endurance simply because they “believed” they could. Mind over matter.
Rubicon wrote:
Indeed, what-if's are the only thing darwin2 has given us after 8 pages of discussion. So far he has wrongly assumed that simply because consciousness might persist after death, that his claim is somehow a scientific statement worthy of scientific inquiry. Apparently he missed the part in science class where it is explained that science only deals with reality and not fantasies and wishful thinking. Science goes where the evidence leads it. Darwin2 has repeatedly admitted that he has none whatsoever.
His most profound failure is that he apparently thinks scientists erect blind assertions and then go looking for evidence to fit said assertion. This is utter FAIL. Scientists base their conclusions upon the available evidence, not the other way around. Darwin2 is assuming the conclusion ("consciousness may persist after death") and then suggests scientists should go looking for evidence for his fabrication. This is simply not how science works. So his persisting in claiming that his assertions are in any way scientific, are laughable at best, for the simple fact that he admittedly has no evidence whatsoever for said assertions.
Furthermore, even though he has been asked several times, he has failed to answer the question why his claim should be considered less absurd than claims about invisible pink unicorns, aliens in my backyard, purple fig leaves the size of Wales and orbiting teapots and should therefore be considered more worthy of scientific inquiry. He has not provided any arguments, only his personal opinion and a seemingly emotional attachment to his fantasy.
"What if" and utter failure to understand the scientific method is all we have so far.
Wuffy wrote:While I disagree with his premise and idea's you do him a disservice by getting his question wrong.
What Darwin2 asked was if one were to be found in the afterlife, should we use the scientific method.
SafeAsMilk wrote:
I also suggest that it is logically possible that an invisible pink unicorn exists, since there is no evidence that they don't exist. She must exist or she must not. Since there is no evidence either way, then there is a 50% chance that the invisible pink unicorn exists! Thusly, let's discuss what we should do when we meet her. Should we use the scientific method? There's a high probability that she'd like that.
gleniedee wrote:No, I haven't read all of your posts,I wasn't aware it was mandatory.I am only asking you to agree it is possible for consciousness to continue after death. Do you agree that it is possible for consciousness to continue after death
Of course it's logically possible.It's also possible aliens will land in the mall this afternoon,and more likely than survival of any kind after death. I base my position on the lack of evidence of so far in recorded history.
Rubicon wrote:darwin2 wrote:Rubicon wrote:What arguments, other than emotional attachment to the idea, do you have that your claim about the possibility that consciousness may persist after death is less absurd than the possibility of invisible blue baboons on Saturn, or purple fig leaves the size of Wales? What, other than your personal opinion on what does or what doesn't constitute an absurd claim, do you have to offer?
I stand by the post you seem to be so irritable about,
Science is using testable data that is organized so as to explain the natural world and make predictions on how it works. I also look upon science as the study of energy and matter and how they interact. If it turns out that consciousness continues after death, then science will study this after death state in the same manner it does in this physical world
Are you deliberately being obtuse here? This doesn't answer my question at all. I asked why you think your proposed claim about consciousness persisting after death is less absurd than the ones about invisible blue baboons on Saturn and purple fig leaves the size of Wales? What objective criteria do you use to determine that your claim is less absurd, and should therefore be considered more worthy as an area of scientific investigation? What do you have to offer, other than your opinion and your emotional attachment to your idea?
darwin2 wrote:... I suggest you read my reply to SafeAs Milk on page 8 of this thread made at 8:27am.
chairman bill wrote:darwin2, your understanding of statistics & probability is erroneous. That said, let's entertain the vague possibility that consciousness survives death; in that case, yes, the scientific method might well be our best bet in terms of understand the new reality of survival of bodily death. But then again, it might not. The scientific method works in our material universe. In a non-material existence, who knows what laws may or may not apply? Maybe then our best guide will be some magical intution, with science leading us astray.
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