Dipole Neurology

the ideas of Felix Lanzalaco

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Re: Dipole Neurology

#121  Postby Brain man » Nov 11, 2011 9:56 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
Brain man wrote:I am reading some papers on duty-cycle overpower events right now to verify if what you say is true from a pure electronics engineering perspective. I have several line saying it is not at least in the brain, and so it looks like simple electronics does not apply to the brain. The information i have from michael persinger is that a non linear pulse can overcome a weaker background static magnetic field. He has about 100 publications on this area and his team have a dedicated lab for 20 years in Canada which is part of Laurentian University that research this. Bear in mind the brains non linear pulse also have an underlying Gamma or alpha cycle phase in the signal.

there are other aspects to this problem that give magnetic field strength from another view. Lester ingber with Paul nunez (innovator in most of EEG) has recently released a series of complex papers on neocortical statistical mechanics of aggregated magnetic fields in cortex columns calculating these weak fields acting together can also overcome the earths static field.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1105.2352

Ahh, we're expected to think that the laws of physics cease to apply inside brains. Convenient for your theory.



of course not. But that they are more complex than electronics described here. Mechanical, chemical and EMF forces all interplay at once. Its easy to make the mistake of concentrating on one aspect and missing the rest. i.e. Several types of physics need integrated, which is not straightforward.

from the recent labwork from fluery, filming the dipole force it seems the pulse is more like a slowly building climax to an MHD spike. I had taken the term pulse from the original mechanisms for glial magnetic fields which are calcium ion waves. They are referred to as pulses or waves in those works to differentiate them from neuron spikes and save a lot of confusion amongst neuroscience, where spike almost always refers to a neuron.

It appears from the movies of fluery that a spike is more appropriate description for this force in the developing brain though. One hemisphere jerks suddenly after a slow buildup of pulsing. The mathematical description given by fleury is a boundary condition jump between quadrupole, and dipole states. My prediction is the quadrupole is linear and always present as an underlying pulse while the dipole then builds up an MDH spike in a push back reaction to the one which just occurred on the other hemisphere. That is both are occurring at the same time, rather than a transition. One problem here is i cant apply ingbers neocortical statistical mechanics of aggregated magnetic fields for a solution. At least not his neuron model. The immature neurons have not migrated and so are inactive.

There is an expert in biophysics interested in what this new labwork is telling us. will be hearing from him next week hopefully. The good news for myself is that i predicted the results of fleuries work independently. He is missing the mechanism, which is what i worked on, while myself, ingber, Pereira & Furlan were scratching our heads over how to produce or even approach the labwork.

Fleury sorted that out. After PZ myers slated him for not producing lab results. Fleury then innovated a new time-lapse microscopy technique, although they were already producing labwork leading up to that which myers was not aware of, or chose to ignore.
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#122  Postby Brain man » Nov 11, 2011 10:03 pm

twistor59 wrote:

Doesn't MHD apply to plasmas ? Like the stuff you get in, say, the sun. Do similar conditions apply in the brain ? Wouldn't this cause:
mattacks.jpeg


It applies wherever there is liquid movement of ions such as calcium ions through radial glial channels. MHD simulations of the earths core use sodium ions. Sodium ions are also the key to the operation of NMDA neuron spikes (the predominant cortical neuron).

In biosytems everything is under such tight regulation and control by a myriad of processes that the forces in most processes are small.
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#123  Postby twistor59 » Nov 11, 2011 10:28 pm

Brain man wrote:
twistor59 wrote:

Doesn't MHD apply to plasmas ? Like the stuff you get in, say, the sun. Do similar conditions apply in the brain ? Wouldn't this cause:
mattacks.jpeg


It applies wherever there is liquid movement of ions such as calcium ions through radial glial channels. MHD simulations of the earths core use sodium ions. Sodium ions are also the key to the operation of NMDA neuron spikes (the predominant cortical neuron).

In biosytems everything is under such tight regulation and control by a myriad of processes that the forces in most processes are small.


Ah right. Where do the magnetic fields come from, to which these ions are responding ?
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#124  Postby Brain man » Nov 12, 2011 8:21 am

twistor59 wrote:
Brain man wrote:
twistor59 wrote:

Doesn't MHD apply to plasmas ? Like the stuff you get in, say, the sun. Do similar conditions apply in the brain ? Wouldn't this cause:
mattacks.jpeg


It applies wherever there is liquid movement of ions such as calcium ions through radial glial channels. MHD simulations of the earths core use sodium ions. Sodium ions are also the key to the operation of NMDA neuron spikes (the predominant cortical neuron).

In biosytems everything is under such tight regulation and control by a myriad of processes that the forces in most processes are small.


Ah right. Where do the magnetic fields come from, to which these ions are responding ?


the magnetic fields are produced by the calcium ions themselves. The embryonic structure has both quadrupole and dipole hydrodynamic flow. this has now been found and filmed in action by vincent fleury.

In MHD simulations such as those done for the earth using just sodium liquid, a single pulse with a spike is all thats needed to kickstart the dipole field. To sustain this there has to be flow parallel to the dipole axis. This is where the quadrupole flow assists by forcing magnetic field to bulge out of the tightly spiraling lines. vincent fleury site has the movies and publications for this. No doubt somebody with malintent will put that into pseudoscience of ratskep, Where cutting edge theories now go first.

the flow arises out of the interplay between turbulence caused by the cortical dipole dynamics, and steady rotation of ions in the Ventricular Zone. These hydrodynamic dipole type flows can even be observed without a magnetometer. Now that the technical problem of filming and deriving the spike times and pulse frequency has been attained, we can repeat the experiment with a magnetometer tuned to extract those out from the earths background field.

Sorry i forgot this is pseudoscience isn't it. We dont actually do or plan experiments here.
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#125  Postby twistor59 » Nov 12, 2011 8:58 am

So you mean basically that a bunch of charges which are free to move act as current sources and hence generate magnetic fields, but since they constitute current elements they also react to magnetic fields and hence the whole problem is complex and non linear ? Somehow in neurons, this spontaneously settles down into a dipole flow, whatever that means - presumably that the calcium ions are flowing along the field lines of a dipole field that is large compared to their dimensions ? What was the statement referred to above about the pulsing of such fields overcoming larger static fields ? How does that work and what is the relevance of the static fields in the brain ?
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#126  Postby Brain man » Nov 12, 2011 10:19 am

twistor59 wrote:So you mean basically that a bunch of charges which are free to move act as current sources and hence generate magnetic fields, but since they constitute current elements they also react to magnetic fields and hence the whole problem is complex and non linear ?


Its both linear and a non linear interaction. The interaction of dipole Hydrodynamics (burst like non linear) and linear quadrupole hydrodynamics (regular, linear). Its pretty hard to model this interaction, or at least requires calling in a computational modeling expert. That has been tried and models are rejected for not being real, so the decision lately has just been to to do experiments and film, measure this in action.

Somehow in neurons, this spontaneously settles down into a dipole flow, whatever that means.


Flow is just the term when integrating magnetic fields with liquids to describe the overall structure within the liquids. i.e Magnetohydrodynamics. The mathematical descriptions for MHD require using Navier stokes and Maxwells equations so these terms save citing a lot of maths. Other terms are reflexion conditions, dipole curl. the paper describing the filming experiments that use the terms dipolar flow is here.

http://www.epj.org/_pdf/HP_EPJE_change_ ... itions.pdf

presumably that the calcium ions are flowing along the field lines of a dipole field that is large compared to their dimensions ?


Thats right. The developing brain has a scaffold called radial glia throughout it, through which calcium ions can pulse through an entire hemisphere. As filmed here.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCsFzIVx37U[/youtube]

What was the statement referred to above about the pulsing of such fields overcoming larger static fields ? How does that work and what is the relevance of the static fields in the brain ?


There has been an increase in publications proposing magnetic function at play in the developed brain, mostly due to calcium ions at the cortex surface in the remnants of the radial glia network in adults, which are an interconnected route of tunnels basically that allow calcium ions to flow (like in the entire hemispheres of the developing brain) called astrocytes.

Image

the first person to propose this could produce a magnetic field was spanish neuroscientist Marcos Banachlocha in 2001 (who reviewed my work also).

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3007000378

Then following that there has been a speed of publications in this area with calls for labwork.

these are some of the others. many prominent neuro or scientists in their own right.

Ingber & Nunez, 2010 , Bokkon & Banaclocha, 2010 , Pereira & Furlan, 2010, Størmer & Laane, 2009

the problem for magnetic brain models in the past was that the magnetic fields from neuron spikes were calculated as too weak to aggregate across cell membranes. since the realization in the past two decades of astrocytes as playing a very important role in brain function, this network of tunnels was found at the brain surface through which the calcium ions flow in waves across larger brain areas. In humans there is at least one astrocyte per neuron. They also modulate neurons by passing neurotransmitters and regulate their processes.

So the proposal is that the calcium wave allows a larger magnetic field to build that can influence cortical neurons and solves a mystery in neuroscience. How sensory inputs are sustained in the cortex for minutes, when the neuron spikes are just a brief burst. Thats not really my area, but I uses these models for the developmental mechanism. Seeing as the developing brain in practically nothing but a complete calcium waves scaffold made from the same biological components.

You can see lots of scientists uploading their lab work of these waves here.

http://www.youtube.com/results?client=o ... a=N&tab=w1

the tunnels, sounds dramatic. Are really just astrocytes connected by proteins called connexin 43. They are basically just tubular holes between astrocytes, that are always open.

When i started on this cortex dipole project nearly ten years ago, it was just a project i was sponsored to produce by my supervisor and took about a year. There was none of this labwork or extra interest by scientists, so it sat on my shelf gathering dust for almost 5 years as an interesting project. I revisited it and found more publications in 2008. Put it together as a paper. Now all this other stuff including labwork has come out.

Basically just one more experiment is left, which i hope to travel to europe to discuss how to approach next year. The technical problem to be overcome is how to get magnetic shielding from the microscope power supplies and cameras to tie together magnetic readings with observed dipolar flow. One method may just be to sample the signature of this equipment and extract it using inverse modeling later. It the magnetometer is not completely thrown by those sources that is.

There are a couple of other methods. One cheap which would not be conclusive (record magnetic fields without the camera present) but at least show both dipole flow and magnetic process occur in the same general developmental time frame, and one very expensive using some new technology developed in cambridge that can take small magnetic readings without requiring a great deal of shielding. Fleuries labwork method has been surprise to me, and of course so obvious, that the chick embryo could be filmed. how did that one get looked over. I was at a neuro conference and they were having problems coming up with an experimental method to record the magnetic fields. one idea proposed was to measure it from large brained developing brains like pregnant elephants !!
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#127  Postby twistor59 » Nov 12, 2011 11:12 am

Brain man wrote:

the first person to propose this could produce a magnetic field was spanish neuroscientist Marcos Banachlocha in 2001 (who reviewed my work also).

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3007000378




Well according to google, the idea of cooperative dipole processes in neurology has been around for 3 decades or more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/.../pdf/biophysj00669-0018.pdf

But given that the novel feature you're talking about is the magnetic field.......unfortunately your reference is paywalled, so I can't see how the magnetic field is brought into the picture.
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#128  Postby Brain man » Nov 12, 2011 11:41 am

twistor59 wrote:
Brain man wrote:

the first person to propose this could produce a magnetic field was spanish neuroscientist Marcos Banachlocha in 2001 (who reviewed my work also).

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3007000378




Well according to google, the idea of cooperative dipole processes in neurology has been around for 3 decades or more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/.../pdf/biophysj00669-0018.pdf

But given that the novel feature you're talking about is the magnetic field.......unfortunately your reference is paywalled, so I can't see how the magnetic field is brought into the picture.


this is the most recent summary of all this from a mathematical perspective.

http://www.ingber.com/smni11_stm_scales.pdf

a biological one

http://www.theassc.org/files/assc/Perei ... nition.pdf

this is some of banaclochas work.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_wcM5 ... QzNTc1ZDk0

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_wcM5 ... A1ZjNjMDJm

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Re: Dipole Neurology

#129  Postby Made of Stars » Nov 12, 2011 11:46 am

A quick search of Pubmed shows that hits for 'dipole neurology' are for articles about seizures. Seems logical to me that there might be some semblance of dipole across the length of a single neuron, but generating larger scale polarities would just fuck up function at shorter length-scales.
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#130  Postby Brain man » Nov 12, 2011 12:18 pm

Made of Stars wrote:A quick search of Pubmed shows that hits for 'dipole neurology' are for articles about seizures. Seems logical to me that there might be some semblance of dipole across the length of a single neuron, but generating larger scale polarities would just fuck up function at shorter length-scales.


its not a neuron model. That would be a quantum mind theory. This is a developmental model for the radial glia which facilitates neurons to migrate to the cortical plate (amongst a load of other things).

The neuro guys i mentiond that are working on glial magnetic models for the developed brain are very slight-quantum mind theories. i.e. Just localized magnetic glial fields at the cortex surface which serve as attractors for neuronal activity patterns. Its really just the mechanism for walter J freemans work on cortical neurodynamics as well as whats sustaining STM (short term memory).
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#131  Postby Made of Stars » Nov 12, 2011 12:26 pm

Interesting field. I'll have to ask my wife about it in the morning - she's a practising pediatric neurologist, but might not know anything about brain anatomy and physiology. :coffee:
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#132  Postby twistor59 » Nov 12, 2011 1:48 pm

Made of Stars wrote:A quick search of Pubmed shows that hits for 'dipole neurology' are for articles about seizures. Seems logical to me that there might be some semblance of dipole across the length of a single neuron, but generating larger scale polarities would just fuck up function at shorter length-scales.


Well, I don't really know how all this fits together, but Ingber is saying that although the electric fields get screened by the polarizability properties of the medium (water), this doesn't happen for the magnetic fields:

At the level of a single neuron, electric field strengths can be as high as about 10V/m for a summation of
excitatory or inhibitory postsynaptic potentials as a neuron fires. The electric field D
D = εE (32)
is rapidly attenuated as the dielectric constant ε seen by ions is close to two orders of magnitude times
that in vacuum, ε 0 due to polarization of water (Nunez, 1981). Magnetic field strengths H in neocortex
are generally quite small, even when estimated for the largest human axons at about 10−7 T, about 1/300 of
the Earth’s magnetic field, based on ferrofluid approximation to the microtuble environment with a
magnetic permeability μ ,
B = μH (33)
about 10 μ0 (Georgiev, 2003). Thus, the electromagnetic fields in neocortex differ substantially from
those in vacuum, i.e.,
ε0 μ0 c2 = 1 (34)
where c is the speed of light. These estimates of magnetic field strengths appear to be reliable when
comparisons between theoretical and experimental measurements are made in crayfish axons (Roth &
Wikswo, 1985).
The above estimates of electric and magnetic field strengths do not consider collective interactions within
and among neighboring minicolumns, which give rise to field strengths much larger as typically measured
by noninvasive EEG and MEG recordings. While electrical activity may be attenuated in the neocortical
environment, this is not true for magnetic fields which may increase collective strengths over relatively
large neocortical distances
. The strengths of magnetic fields in neocortex may be at a threshold to
directly influence synaptic interactions with astrocytes, as proposed for long-term memory (LTM)
(Gordon et al, 2009) and short-term memory (STM) (Banaclocha, 2007; Pereira & Furlan, 2010)
Magnetic strengths associated by collective EEG activity at a columnar level gives rise to even stronger
magnetic fields.
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#133  Postby Paul Almond » Nov 16, 2011 1:09 am

Okay, I've been mentioned here by Spearthrower, so I had better respond. While I have had a suspicion about the matter to which Spearthrower refers, I am considerably less certain now - and I have to admit that it is possible that some suspicions I might have had were based on coincidence.

While I'm posting this I'll comment on another issue - the whole "Is it okay to say that theories are pseudo-science" issue? I would say this is just statement of opinion. In fact, a previous user (who was later banned for trolling or sockpuppetry or something) started a thread about me here. I can hardly object. I value free speech, so it would be hypocritical of me to do so. The only issue I think merits some discussion is this: what are the grounds for putting something in pseudoscience? Is it that a single member thinks it is pseudoscience, or many members do, or the moderators do, etc.? As long as there is consistency about whatever standard is applied I don't see a problem. As an example, if I start a thread here on general relativity, saying that Einstein's theories are "pseudoscience" (I don't think this really: this is just a hypothetical) does the thread stay there by virtue of me putting it there or does it get moved when moderators decide it is unfair labelling of relativity as pseudoscience? Provided we have such consistency tben the only issue here is that some people are stating opinions about some things and making value judgements on some things - and people are always allowed to do that.
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#134  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 16, 2011 5:03 am

Paul Almond wrote:Okay, I've been mentioned here by Spearthrower, so I had better respond. While I have had a suspicion about the matter to which Spearthrower refers, I am considerably less certain now - and I have to admit that it is possible that some suspicions I might have had were based on coincidence.


Hi Paul - are you sure you're talking about me? I can't find anywhere where I've mentioned you.


Paul Almond wrote:While I'm posting this I'll comment on another issue - the whole "Is it okay to say that theories are pseudo-science" issue? I would say this is just statement of opinion. In fact, a previous user (who was later banned for trolling or sockpuppetry or something) started a thread about me here. I can hardly object. I value free speech, so it would be hypocritical of me to do so. The only issue I think merits some discussion is this: what are the grounds for putting something in pseudoscience? Is it that a single member thinks it is pseudoscience, or many members do, or the moderators do, etc.? As long as there is consistency about whatever standard is applied I don't see a problem. As an example, if I start a thread here on general relativity, saying that Einstein's theories are "pseudoscience" (I don't think this really: this is just a hypothetical) does the thread stay there by virtue of me putting it there or does it get moved when moderators decide it is unfair labelling of relativity as pseudoscience? Provided we have such consistency tben the only issue here is that some people are stating opinions about some things and making value judgements on some things - and people are always allowed to do that.


If someone puts a thread saying that Einstein's theories are pseudo-science, presumably they would be bringing something to the table that would likely be wrong, misguided, or itself pseudoscience.

I think the whole case revolves around Bman trying to get uncritical respect - he wants this forum to enable rather than debunk.
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#135  Postby The_Metatron » Nov 16, 2011 10:30 am

Bingo.
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#136  Postby hackenslash » Nov 17, 2011 10:38 pm

Spearthrower wrote:If someone puts a thread saying that Einstein's theories are pseudo-science, presumably they would be bringing something to the table that would likely be wrong, misguided, or itself pseudoscience.

I think the whole case revolves around Bman trying to get uncritical respect - he wants this forum to enable rather than debunk.


Indeed. He has been engaged in an exercise wherein he attempts to debunk the entire concept of pseudoscience, thus bringing his own fatuous assertions out of the realm of pseudoscience and into the realm of science. This is much akin to the abuse of science inflicted upon us by cretinists, in which they present the idea that, if evolution can be shown to be wrong, they must be right by default.

It will fail, of course, because he's expounding on a model that is clearly horseshit from the bottom up, as we're more than aware, having delicately extricated the entrails of his guff with startling precision.
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#137  Postby ingber » Aug 29, 2012 8:18 pm

Hi. I just ran across this thread. As an update to this, I have a recent paper which indeed shows a larges-scale effect on Ca2+ ions, in
L. Ingber, "Influence of macrocolumnar EEG on Ca waves,'' Current Progress Journal 1 (1), 4-8 (2012). [URL http://www.ingber.com/smni12_vectpot.pdf and http://researchpub.org/journal/cpj/numb ... -no1-1.pdf
which is reported as well in
P.L. Nunez, R. Srinivasan, and L. Ingber, ``Theoretical and experimental electrophysiology in human neocortex: Multiscale correlates of conscious experience,'' in Multiscale Analysis and Nonlinear Dynamics, edited by M. Pesenson (Wiley, New York, 2012), p. (to be published).

In my CPJ paper, I calculate a vector potential A of large macrocolumnar EEG that is quite large relative to Ca2+ momenta. This should have a large influence on, if not initiation of, Ca2+ waves.

I believe the basic premise to be robust against any theoretical modeling, as I use experimental data wherever possible for both Ca2+ ions and for large-scale electromagnetic activity.

Also, in the context of quantum influences, for some years it has been noted that a reasonable Gaussian wave function for a Ca2+ ion during its participation in a wave can have a spatial spread on the order of a synapse. I note the p.A effect is simply calculated here with the same answer as in the classical case: The momentum representation of such a Gaussian is itself a Gaussian. The field A is shown in this paper to be quite insensitive to a reasonable spatial location, so we just have to consider the expectation of momentum p, which give back the classical value. (This is more straightforward than a typical p.A calculation that does a partial integration to get x.dA/dt (partial derivatives) giving x.E, but "x" is not as directly observed as p is in this context.)

So, we are left with simply noting that a p.A effect could be seen as a predominance of Ca2+ waves in directions closely aligned to the direction perpendicular to neocortical laminae (A is in the same direction as the current flow, typically across laminae, albeit they are convoluted), especially during strong collective EEG (e.g., strong enough to be measured on the scalp, such as during selective attention tasks).

I realize that the spatial scales of Ca2+ wave and macro-EEG are quite disparate, so a group would have to be able to see and correlate both scales in time scales on the order of msec.

Have anyone seen any such angular effect?

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Re: Dipole Neurology

#138  Postby twistor59 » Aug 31, 2012 7:36 am

Hi Prof Ingber,

Unfortunately I don't know anything about these biophysical applications discussed here, but I just wanted to remark that when I was an undergrad all those decades ago I remember reading a paper of yours called something like "The Physics of Karate" :cheers:
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Re: Dipole Neurology

#139  Postby theropod » Aug 31, 2012 1:08 pm

ingber wrote:Hi. I just ran across this thread.

snip...

Lester


MOD MODE OFF

FIrst off, welcome to our forum. Have fun. Explore. COMMENT.

There is a great deal more to ratskep than this subfora.

I can't pretend to comment on your work, and won't BS you in that regard (I'll find something else with which I'll bullshit you).

:lol:

It might be more rewarding for you to create new threads and explain your thinking in terms us mere mortals can grasp. Look around and use our search function to see if we've broached subjects of which you find interest. Threads like THIS one have left a bitter taste, and baggage, it's best to just forget. However since the wound has been opened I'll bite.

This (baggage) is partly why I find it curious that your first post would involve Brainman, with whom I went around and around about whether the earth's magnetic poles have ever reversed. It didn't seem to matter to him how many sources of examination have returned evidence of the multitude of such reversals. I'm a sort of student of these geophysical matters and it eventually became apparent Bman had no intention of engaging the data, results or repetitive nature of multifaceted testing. His sole intent, it seems, was to troll us all. He was far more interested in our reactions than to reason. This manifest exhibition of repulsive intellectual discourse just wasted time, bandwidth and energy. Do you really want to be held in association with such history? I don't. I almost feel dirty for posting in this wasteland of words.

Another Bman's famous threads is the EXPANDING EARTH monster. It's something that has become a maelstrom of silliness. That's why these threads dwell in the pseudoscience dungeon.

It seems I'm not smart enough to really figure out if your post is in support of one of Bman's assertions, or not. Can you talk down to us a little so we can more easily understand your position? Maybe make a new thread and approach the wider community with your position? I'd appreciate it, personally, as learning anything is something I treasure. Just not HERE.

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Re: Dipole Neurology

#140  Postby Hardcoreathiest » Aug 31, 2012 2:27 pm

theropod wrote:Another Bman's famous threads is the EXPANDING EARTH monster. It's something that has become a maelstrom of silliness. That's why these threads dwell in the pseudoscience dungeon.


Do you mean this thread ?

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/pseud ... -6120.html

It looks pretty intense... from a scientific perspective, at least latterly, all i see is citation after citation, and geological points. I get the impression many of these posters advocating the theory there are geologists or work in related fields ? One of them specifically is a journal reviewer. It appears serious enough about the subject to specify the geological points at a science level.

Theropod, I would be grateful if you take a look at the first page of that thread.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/pseud ... t8539.html

If you are not aware already, notice it is neal adams animation of the magnetic data which started the thread in the first place and boy what a lot of controversy I see in that poll, yet I looked in the thread again out of interest recently. The geology debate has intensified a great deal since its controversial start. Integrity of the advocates is so serious they even argued what could be considered to be their "own side" off of the board. Specifically those who were not cutting it scientifically on all cylinders were tackled to produce a more scientific approach i.e Neal adams.

What Florian and Erakivnor were getting into on that thread is too far beyond me to tell whose points are more valid anymore, but the intensity makes for an interesting read... :popcorn:
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