Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

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Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere. Yes or No ?

Yes
20
17%
No
87
73%
Yes But...Add your reason
7
6%
No But...Add your reason
6
5%
 
Total votes : 120

Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

 
 

Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#521  Postby lucek » Nov 10, 2010 6:08 am

Physicists Dan Hooper of the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Ill., and the University of Chicago and Lisa Goodenough of New York University base their findings, posted October 15 at arXiv.org, on an unexplained excess of energetic gamma rays emitted from the core of the galaxy. The gamma rays were recorded over the past two years with an instrument aboard NASA’s Fermi Gamma-ray Space Telescope, launched in 2008.

http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/64825/title/Revealing_the_galaxy
Only reference to the solar system is.
The nature of magnetic fields and black holes as dark matter (coupled neutrons as dark matter, and coupled electron-proton pairs as neutrons) can explain the flat rotation curve of galaxies (why galaxies spin like a solid unit, unlike solar systems where each planet spins at different speeds - It is peculiar that the outer portions of the galaxy do not spin slower).

And that's in the comment section.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#522  Postby byofrcs » Nov 10, 2010 6:16 am

Brain man wrote:
lucek wrote:
If you can't add anything to the discussion of substance then why do you think you need to continue in the discussion.


To concentrate on the graphic aspect, as i have qualifications and experience in graphics. The animation is the elephant in the room which everybody avoids discussing here, and has easy get outs..say its dishonest, change the subject etc..

.......


Opposite sides of a jigsaw puzzle also match up no matter how close you zoom in. In many cases on "hard" puzzles (which actually have the simplest design in the pieces), the pieces can also match up when you grab them at random.

It is not a problem that shapes match up - the problem is that the visual models do not show the types of terrain (minerals) and the genetics of the plants and animals on that land. These are the things that a jigsaw puzzle is built on - not the shape of the pieces.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#523  Postby Weaver » Nov 10, 2010 6:19 am

So, Brainman, you freely admit you don't know crap about geology or physics as it applies to the discussion, and that you are only really interested in this graphic representation - yet you are willing to discount all the reams of contradictory science based on a video displaying the supposed movement of terrestrial features displayed as a <2 inch ball - a display which scales at something on the order of 1:42,240,000 or so.

You really think you can see enough detail on such a scale to disprove all of geology?
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#524  Postby Brain man » Nov 10, 2010 6:24 am

lucek wrote:
Physicists Dan Hooper of the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Ill., and the University of Chicago and Lisa Goodenough of New York University base their findings, posted October 15 at arXiv.org, on an unexplained excess of energetic gamma rays emitted from the core of the galaxy. The gamma rays were recorded over the past two years with an instrument aboard NASA’s Fermi Gamma-ray Space Telescope, launched in 2008.

http://sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/64825/title/Revealing_the_galaxy
Only reference to the solar system is.
The nature of magnetic fields and black holes as dark matter (coupled neutrons as dark matter, and coupled electron-proton pairs as neutrons) can explain the flat rotation curve of galaxies (why galaxies spin like a solid unit, unlike solar systems where each planet spins at different speeds - It is peculiar that the outer portions of the galaxy do not spin slower).

And that's in the comment section.



That is Harley Borgais comments. He made the prediction that dark matter was concentrated at the center years ago, and had the idea rejected as ridiculous by some top people in the field.

There are implications for the solar system, as his theory is saying that physics can be unified by looking at quantum forces and gravity within the context of the solar system, and the dark matter in the center of it as playing a key role in this unification.

But that is another topic and again out of my realm. I am just making the point we need reminded there is a lot we do not know at this stage, and here is an example of a fringe theorist in action, being ridiculed and then his predictions are looking more correct as data comes out.

Its a common pattern throughout the history of science or any field of endeavor, which is why name calling and ridicule has to be water of a ducks back to anybody with ideas or ambition of any kind.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#525  Postby lucek » Nov 10, 2010 6:27 am

Brain man wrote:To concentrate on the graphic aspect, as i have qualifications and experience in graphics. The animation is the elephant in the room which everybody avoids discussing here, and has easy get outs..say its dishonest, change the subject etc.

OK. What qualification allows you to say an obviously fudged video is real?
By getting the model of the planet you can then run the ocean floor regression yourself. But this time take every objection about neal adams animation, then study to see if they are valid. For example zoom in on south america as it goes through its last regression, which people attack here. You aren't zooming in on a video, you would be zooming in on a 3d reconstruction done independently from neal adams, based on planetary data which is accurate to the metre.

OK going to the "source" you find credible watch the video starting at 1:00 to 1:30 in the southern hemisphere the red coded rock indicating it's between 0 and 9.6 million years old is vanishing at the same time as yellow and green coded rock indicating it's between 47.9 and 118 million years old is vanishing in the northern hemisphere.
You mean tweak the models of course...Every scientist does it. Thats part of the process of figuring problems out. All thats under debate is whether there is dishonesty here.

No, I mean what I said. Examine the evidence follow what holds out. No where in my explanation did I say we needed to tweak one side or the other. I merely pointed out that there is an anomaly so we find out what it is figure where it comes from and judge the contradicting hypotheses on the results.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#526  Postby Brain man » Nov 10, 2010 6:29 am

Weaver wrote:So, Brainman, you freely admit you don't know crap about geology or physics as it applies to the discussion, and that you are only really interested in this graphic representation - yet you are willing to discount all the reams of contradictory science based on a video displaying the supposed movement of terrestrial features displayed as a <2 inch ball - a display which scales at something on the order of 1:42,240,000 or so.

You really think you can see enough detail on such a scale to disprove all of geology?


it depends on the size of the terrain models, how much ram they will need to get a reasonable result, and i presume there must be compression programs in the modellers which reduce the terrain size as they are being shunted from the hard disk into video preview. As these are massive models.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#527  Postby Brain man » Nov 10, 2010 6:38 am

Weaver wrote:So, Brainman, you freely admit you don't know crap about geology or physics as it applies to the discussion, and that you are only really interested in this graphic representation - yet you are willing to discount all the reams of contradictory science based on a video displaying the supposed movement of terrestrial features displayed as a <2 inch ball - a display which scales at something on the order of 1:42,240,000 or so.



I am not completely ignorant on physics. My PHD will be on biophysics..mostly for neuroscience, and i did basic physics at Uni.

When resources are limited, in time and what you can get into, you just focus on what you can. I could spend time on the geology, but then i would end up getting right into that, as i go all out or nothing and other responsibilities would suffer.

I choose to focus on the animation as that is what is of interest to me. If that is broken, then it breaks the grip this idea has on me, because EE its a holistic model.

Where else do you have such holistic complete model of geology than the entire planet, and its magnetic data as in the UNESCO data set ? All the rest of geology is bits here and there. WE all know its easy to take fragmented pieces and take them to build what you like.

ITs not so easy to just wind back the floor and have the earth fall into one piece. The probability of holistic data on such a complex structure as the earth is not high, although i cannot say what the probabilities are at this stage.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#528  Postby lucek » Nov 10, 2010 6:39 am

Brain man wrote:That is Harley Borgais comments. He made the prediction that dark matter was concentrated at the center years ago, and had the idea rejected as ridiculous by some top people in the field.

There are implications for the solar system, as his theory is saying that physics can be unified by looking at quantum forces and gravity within the context of the solar system, and the dark matter in the center of it as playing a key role in this unification.

But that is another topic and again out of my realm. I am just making the point we need reminded there is a lot we do not know at this stage, and here is an example of a fringe theorist in action, being ridiculed and then his predictions are looking more correct as data comes out.

Its a common pattern throughout the history of science or any field of endeavor, which is why name calling and ridicule has to be water of a ducks back to anybody with ideas or ambition of any kind.

Wait wait wait. Go back a step. Was he "predicting" that there is a concentration of dark matter in the center of the galaxy? That's not a prediction. That's a retrodiction unless he is really old.

Edit: with work like this I wouldn't blame anyone for dismissing him.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#529  Postby Brain man » Nov 10, 2010 7:02 am

OK. What qualification allows you to say an obviously fudged video is real?


I am qualified in autocad, and have used terrain modelers both which involve large 3d datasets. i.e. An entire building design or large terrains. There is logistical problems taking this size of data to and from the hard disk - modelers Ram- OpenGl GPU ram.

In autocad accuracy is maintained by total compression to bare points and a language for each component in the building is clearly defined. In terrain model its a completely different story, compression has to done using spatial approximations. There is a lot that can go wrong. So what i am saying is that i would understand roughly that the animation house neal adams went to would face certain practical difficulties, even if being entirely honest in their aims. Even with the best workstations and a decent render farm. There is a limit to what those guys could do without supercomputer access and more experts to hand.


OK going to the "source" you find credible watch the video starting at 1:00 to 1:30 in the southern hemisphere the red coded rock indicating it's between 0 and 9.6 million years old is vanishing at the same time as yellow and green coded rock indicating it's between 47.9 and 118 million years old is vanishing in the northern hemisphere.


I can see this. At 1:20 red land re-appears when it had just been taken away, and some green is going at the same time. It doesn't kill the whole video, but looks like a glitch in the modeling, because the original Dataset is ambiguous. There is no real delineation from red to yellow to green. The banding of the colors into strips is far too big for magnetic domain striping. This is because I presume they have taken an approximated version of the original data so they can fit it in the modelers ram.


No, I mean what I said. Examine the evidence follow what holds out. No where in my explanation did I say we needed to tweak one side or the other. I merely pointed out that there is an anomaly so we find out what it is figure where it comes from and judge the contradicting hypotheses on the results.


Is still tweaking. Most scientists admit to tweaking as means to play around with fixing problems. The difference is that the tweaking is written up openly in the methodology sections of papers.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#530  Postby lucek » Nov 10, 2010 7:18 am

Brain man wrote:

I am qualified in autocad, and have used terrain modelers both which involve large 3d datasets. i.e. An entire building design or large terrains. There is logistical problems taking this size of data to and from the hard disk - modelers Ram- OpenGl GPU ram.

In autocad accuracy is maintained by total compression to bare points and a language for each component in the building is clearly defined. In terrain model its a completely different story, compression has to done using spatial approximations. There is a lot that can go wrong. So what i am saying is that i would understand roughly that the animation house neal adams went to would face certain practical difficulties, even if being entirely honest in their aims. Even with the best workstations and a decent render farm. There is a limit to what those guys could do without supercomputer access and more experts to hand.


Great autocad. One of my degrees is in architecture, minoring in mechanical engineering. I know a little about CAD and 3D graphics. I also know that it is irrelevant. Witch is why I've not brought it up. The fact is that the video it's self contradicts it's premise. It's not a limitation of ram or of program there is actual data being created out of whole cloth.

I can see this. At 1:20 red land re-appears when it had just been taken away, and some green is going at the same time. It doesn't kill the whole video, but looks like a glitch in the modeling, because the original Dataset is ambiguous. There is no real delineation from red to yellow to green. The banding of the colors into strips is far too big for magnetic domain striping. This is because I presume they have taken an approximated version of the original data so they can fit it in the modelers ram.

Again no it's him trying to keep the earth a sphere by breaking his own rules.

Is still tweaking. Most scientists admit to tweaking as means to play around with fixing problems. The difference is that the tweaking is written up openly in the methodology sections of papers.

No it's not. It's testing a hypothesis. What you are thinking of is someone developing a new hypothesis based off the failed one. Not the same as tweaking.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#531  Postby Brain man » Nov 10, 2010 7:24 am

Edit: with work like this I wouldn't blame anyone for dismissing him.
The world we see is 3-dimensional. Time is the 4th dimension. Thought (or the mind) is beyond the scope of this explanation of the forces of nature, but it is at least one additional dimension. All forces react best at 90-degrees and that is why the spacetime continuum is made of four tangent dimensions (at 90-degrees to one another). The energies that intersect at angles less than 90-degrees create lesser forces and interference patterns, like holograms (picture pebbles thrown into water to imagine interference patterns). . .
[


I have corrected him on thought, and explained to him it is not another dimension. There were eminent neuroscientists pushing that it was to the layperson at that time, and too much string theory to back up the ideas, was not helping people either. Those neuroscientists did have some solid foundations for their concepts, but took it too far. The less said the better, but there is still some good which did come out of their efforts, even if it didnt actually help with their aims.

As for the concepts on angles and electromagnetism, some if is borne out by the study of magnetic toroids and common factors between the probability distributions in electron configurations. Anyway most of that material you quoted from him is years out of date and have been since developed further.

style aside, he has some interesting models, which make intuitive sense, and major predictions are being borne out by new studies.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#532  Postby lucek » Nov 10, 2010 7:30 am

Brain man wrote:
Edit: with work like this I wouldn't blame anyone for dismissing him.
The world we see is 3-dimensional. Time is the 4th dimension. Thought (or the mind) is beyond the scope of this explanation of the forces of nature, but it is at least one additional dimension. All forces react best at 90-degrees and that is why the spacetime continuum is made of four tangent dimensions (at 90-degrees to one another). The energies that intersect at angles less than 90-degrees create lesser forces and interference patterns, like holograms (picture pebbles thrown into water to imagine interference patterns). . .
[


I have corrected him on thought, and explained to him it is not another dimension. There were eminent neuroscientists pushing that it was to the layperson at that time, and too much string theory to back up the ideas, was not helping people either. Those neuroscientists did have some solid foundations for their concepts, but took it too far. The less said the better, but there is still some good which did come out of their efforts, even if it didnt actually help with their aims.

As for the concepts on angles and electromagnetism, some if is borne out by the study of magnetic toroids and common factors between the probability distributions in electron configurations. Anyway most of that material you quoted from him is years out of date and have been since developed further.

style aside, he has some interesting models, which make intuitive sense, and major predictions are being borne out by new studies.

This thread already has it's focus but I started a New thread dedicated to his work if you want to post what you mean. In my opinion it's technobabble not science.
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/pseudoscience/work-of-harley-borgais-t15672.html
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#533  Postby Brain man » Nov 10, 2010 7:35 am

lucek wrote:

Great autocad. One of my degrees is in architecture, minoring in mechanical engineering. I know a little about CAD and 3D graphics. I also know that it is irrelevant. Witch is why I've not brought it up. The fact is that the video it's self contradicts it's premise. It's not a limitation of ram or of program there is actual data being created out of whole cloth.


Of course it is. Doing a degree is one thing. Actually being involved in a real work project involving large datasets is quite another. They nave major logistical problems, piecing large models together. Do you recall how large scale engineering projects have to weld the datasets together seamlessly in autocad ? After years of problems they ended up with a modeling system based on an underlying LISP system, designed so that it does not matter how big or complex the project gets, it can be a generator to an entire town plan...there is no glitch, not at any scale. The system can even stitch together with another engineers work across the internet. It could cope with perfect models of the infrastructure of the entire planet.

That does not apply to terrain rendering for the reasons i mentioned. Its still in its infancy, even for those with access to todays, ultimate computation, so you cannot expect terrain mapping of an entire planet to be perfect.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#534  Postby lucek » Nov 10, 2010 7:41 am

Brain man wrote:Of course it is. Doing a degree is one thing. Actually being involved in a real work project involving large datasets is quite another. They nave major logistical problems, piecing large models together. Do you recall how large scale engineering projects have to weld the datasets together seamlessly in autocad ? After years of problems they ended up with a modeling system based on an underlying LISP system, designed so that it does not matter how big or complex the project gets, it can be a generator to an entire town plan...there is no glitch, not at any scale. The system can even stitch together with another engineers work across the internet. It could cope with perfect models of the infrastructure of the entire planet.

That does not apply to terrain rendering for the reasons i mentioned. Its still in its infancy, even for those with access to todays, ultimate computation, so you cannot expect terrain mapping of an entire planet to be perfect.

And not one bit of that has to do with the analysis of the video or any of the other material you chose to ignore for some reason.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#535  Postby Brain man » Nov 10, 2010 7:56 am

lucek wrote:
This thread already has it's focus but I started a New thread dedicated to his work if you want to post what you mean. In my opinion it's technobabble not science.
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/pseudoscience/work-of-harley-borgais-t15672.html



You would be better contacting the author for his current work rather than quote mining the worst aspects of ten year old material. I have already discussed with him I do not follow this idea of having blind respect for alternative science, and that is all i have to contribute on that.

I do not join in the new fashion of young people, joining internet forums, to get off on the cheap kicks of being part of a crowd bashing lone individuals who take risks, and try to contribute what they can imperfections at all.

I might as well play football or go back to the playground. What a waste of time and maturity which is obviously not there to begin with. I notice that a lot of people who go online and do this kind of thing were or still are, at the butt end of bullying and social isolation themselves.

This is science where time is more productively spent, trying to see past somebodies weakness (and most good scientists have plenty of them) to mine what might be possible nuggets of genius in their work.

Anything else is a complete waste of time, so count me out that.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#536  Postby hotshoe » Nov 10, 2010 8:01 am

Brain man wrote:
lucek wrote:
This thread already has it's focus but I started a New thread dedicated to his work if you want to post what you mean. In my opinion it's technobabble not science.
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/pseudoscience/work-of-harley-borgais-t15672.html



You would be better contacting the author for his current work rather than quote mining the worst aspects of ten year old material. I have already discussed with him I do not follow this idea of having blind respect for alternative science, and that is all i have to contribute on that.

I do not join in the new fashion of young people, joining internet forums, to get off on the cheap kicks of being part of a crowd bashing lone individuals who take risks, and try to contribute what they can imperfections at all.

I might as well play football or go back to the playground. What a waste of time and maturity which is obviously not there to begin with. I notice that a lot of people who go online and do this kind of thing were or still are, at the butt end of bullying and social isolation themselves.

This is science where time is more productively spent, trying to see past somebodies weakness (and most good scientists have plenty of them) to mine what might be possible nuggets of genius in their work.

Anything else is a complete waste of time, so count me out that.

Proofreading your posts before hitting submit is never a waste of time. Putting the words you mean in the correct order with the correct punctuation will allow you to communicate. If you're not a native English speaker, you might remind us of that so that we make allowances for your imperfections.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#537  Postby Brain man » Nov 10, 2010 8:06 am

lucek wrote:
And not one bit of that has to do with the analysis of the video or any of the other material you chose to ignore for some reason.


The EE video is is a large scale terrain render which has major problems with accuracy and pulling together the terrain pieces into a single frame render, never mind an animation spanning long time periods. Read the papers at the end of the Wiki article to get an idea of what these are. I am sure you can figure it out though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrain_rendering

Basically at this stage you still need a supercomputer running for weeks, to crunch the EE model perfectly, but a decent workstation might be able to focus on particular problems at sections of neal adams work.
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#538  Postby Brain man » Nov 10, 2010 8:08 am

hotshoe wrote:
Proofreading your posts before hitting submit is never a waste of time. Putting the words you mean in the correct order with the correct punctuation will allow you to communicate. If you're not a native English speaker, you might remind us of that so that we make allowances for your imperfections.


Thats just the start of my imperfections, do you have a few years for the entire list ?
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#539  Postby hotshoe » Nov 10, 2010 8:09 am

Brain man wrote:
hotshoe wrote:
Proofreading your posts before hitting submit is never a waste of time. Putting the words you mean in the correct order with the correct punctuation will allow you to communicate. If you're not a native English speaker, you might remind us of that so that we make allowances for your imperfections.


Thats just the start of my imperfections, do you have a few years for the entire list ?

Is that meant to say you are NOT a native English speaker, or are you just being snarky ?
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Re: Expanding earth. Do the continents wind back to a sphere

#540  Postby lucek » Nov 10, 2010 8:10 am

Brain man wrote:
lucek wrote:
This thread already has it's focus but I started a New thread dedicated to his work if you want to post what you mean. In my opinion it's technobabble not science.
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/pseudoscience/work-of-harley-borgais-t15672.html



You would be better contacting the author for his current work rather than quote mining the worst aspects of ten year old material. I have already discussed with him I do not follow this idea of having blind respect for alternative science, and that is all i have to contribute on that.

I do not join in the new fashion of young people, joining internet forums, to get off on the cheap kicks of being part of a crowd bashing lone individuals who take risks, and try to contribute what they can imperfections at all.

I might as well play football or go back to the playground. What a waste of time and maturity which is obviously not there to begin with. I notice that a lot of people who go online and do this kind of thing were or still are, at the butt end of bullying and social isolation themselves.

This is science where time is more productively spent, trying to see past somebodies weakness (and most good scientists have plenty of them) to mine what might be possible nuggets of genius in their work.

Anything else is a complete waste of time, so count me out that.

You claim that I quote mined his material. How is it out of context, what is the proper context, how dose that effect the substance of the material.

You claim that his material is out of date and that he has corrected it sense but we were talking about material he submitted to scientists years ago, and his website hasn't corrected anything.
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