The OP claim that AZT has never been subject to a double-blind trial is easily debunkable with the most simple Google search - as are many of his other claims.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=azt ... 0QgQMIGDAA

He sounds very like someone that was banned. A smell of hosiery?

chairman bill wrote:

Firestarter wrote:... To understand the true nature of AIDS it is helpful to distinguish between the 4 separate risk groups for AIDS: ... 4) Africans.

Sounds like racist fuckwittery to me. As for the remainder of the conspiracy theorist bollocks, interspersed with a large helping of pseudoscientific nonsense ...


Edit to add: Members of rationalskepticism.org agree to:

1.1 only register one account with rationalskepticism.org and not allow anyone else to use your account.

1.2. not cause harm or disruption to the forum or other members, for example please don't:
a. post criminal content

b. post racist, sexist, homophobic content

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/old-announcements/forum-users-agreement-t76.html

My bolding of text. Just saying'

To be fair, I think our twisted Firestarter is alleging that Africans, gay men (lesbians are actually less at risk than the general population), haemophilliacs and drug addicts are being targeted by some kind of population control programme masquerading as a disease (TBH, it's hard to tell). Firestarter's screed would therefore qualify as an anti-racist/anti-homophobic document.

Or to put it another way, alleging that a group is being targeted for death is not a declaration that group deserves death.

Weaver wrote:The OP claim that AZT has never been subject to a double-blind trial is easily debunkable with the most simple Google search - as are many of his other claims.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=azt ... 0QgQMIGDAA

Are any of these double blind placebo controlled studies like: 1) the phase III study for AZT (that wasn’t performed before AZT was already approved) or 2) the phase II study that was aborted before the planned 6 months duration because it would be “unethical” to continue?

Firestarter wrote:The Phase II "double-blind, placebo controlled trial" for AZT was stopped before the planned 6 months duration, because the AZT group was doing so much better than the placebo group. How could they know, if the study was blinded?

chairman bill wrote:[

Besides reading books and articles by AIDS-denialists; I went further. I searched for scientific evidence that proves:

Enough of this fuckwittery. Science does not deal in proofs, so when you say you searched for scientific evidence to prove something, you demonstrate that you don't understand science. So someone who doesn't understand science, is here lecturing us on pseudoscience. Talk about brass neck.

I really did try to find scientific evidence, but because all of these “scientific” medical studies are biased from the start, this is not that easy.
Technically this is not “pseudoscience” though, but premeditated…

kiore wrote:

several hundreds of children die of “wild polio”

? Because that is not what the Polio elimination program seeks to do, it seeks to eliminate Polio to prevent the massive epidemics that we used to see before vaccines became available and to actually cease the requirement to vaccinate against Polio once the last reservoirs are eliminated.

You could be right about this one.
I’ve read some horrible stories about the effects of vaccination. If I follow this reasoning the objective of mandatory vaccination of the poor kids, is to protect the elite for diseases. Is there information available about what percentage of the rich get vaccinated?
It is known that the elite regularly use drugs and have a promiscuous sexual life. I know that some famous (gay) people died with the official death cause AIDS, but not many high politicians in the developed world or top managers of big corporations.

Firestarter wrote:
I’ve read some horrible stories about the effects of vaccination.

We've all seen the anecdotes about the extremely isolated effects of vaccination. But, no anti-vaxxer ever bothers to talk about the millions of people who didn't have a horrible experience and simply went on to live their lives free from some truly horrible diseases.

There are far, far, far more horrible stories about the effects of smallpox on people than there are or ever will be about the effects of vaccination.

Firestarter wrote: If I follow this reasoning the objective of mandatory vaccination of the poor kids, is to protect the elite for diseases.

Speaking as one of many poor kids from a poor area with other poor kids who got vaccinated, this is bollocks of the purest sort.
I'm curious as to who the "elites" we might have been mingling with that we were protecting.

As it stands, unvaccinated people are bad for herd immunity. So if there were any unvaccinated "elites" I'm glad they weren't anywhere near me to put the health of kids who couldn't get vaccinations at risk.

Firestarter wrote: Is there information available about what percentage of the rich get vaccinated?

Where would one even get such information? Depending on how your healthcare is funded, the amount of money you have will have no bearing on whether you receive a vaccination or not and consequently no record of your family wealth will be collected.

What we can easily find, however, is the prevalence of diseases that are preventable by vaccinations in populations with limited access to vaccinations or where vaccination uptake has fallen. For example: the increase in measles seen in the UK populations following the media hysteria reporting on the work of that lying cunt Wakefield.

Firestarter wrote: It is known that the elite regularly use drugs and have a promiscuous sexual life.

Is it is known? Unless you can present evidence to support this claim, you don't know any such thing.

Genocide by AK-47 is much more effective.

I wonder whether vaccines cause paranoid conspiracy theorists to emerge from what would otherwise have been healthy children?

Sendraks wrote:

Firestarter wrote: It is known that the elite regularly use drugs and have a promiscuous sexual life.

Is it is known? Unless you can present evidence to support this claim, you don't know any such thing.

Just a few of the many examples about the sexual life of the elite (information like this can be found easily in an internet search)…
According to the following article Wilt Chamberlain claimed he slept with 20,000 women. Bill Clinton told one of his many girlfriends (Dolly Kile) in 1987 that he only had sex with one tenth of that amount: https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/tag/ch ... al-father/

Closer to my home King Willem III of the Netherlands had the nickname Koning Gorilla (back in the 19th century) which was due in part to the massive amount of sexual relations he had. Here’s a list of illegitimate children of the House of Oranje-Nassau (in Dutch): http://www.hethuisvanoranje.nl/10%20Bas ... deren.html
Prince Bernhard had at least 2 illegitimate children: Alexia Grinda and Mildred Zijlstra. This is the same Prince Bernhard that cofounded the Bilderberg Group, 1001 Club and WWF (the later with the previously mentioned Sir Julian Huxley).
About a month ago an official book was published about Queen Juliana, but the revelations that Prince Bernhard sexually assaulted any woman that he could get his hands on, including a 16-year-old girl, got more attention in the state media than Juliana (in Dutch): http://revu.nl/entertainment/bij-de-kof ... soestdijk/

If President John F. Kennedy would have been more careful to hide his sexual affairs dear Jacky might have tried to prevent his assassination.
Donald Trump has bragged about how easy he could get women in his bed: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ce-9009992

Sendraks wrote:I'm curious as to who the "elites" we might have been mingling with that we were protecting.

The absolute top of the pyramid is the family Rothschild (currently led by Baron Jacob Rothschild).
The best book I found on the secret societies that rule us is Eustace Mullins’ “The world order - Our secret rulers” (1984): http://www.eustacemullins.us/wp-content ... 201992.pdf
See this next quote "Five men rule the world. This Council of Five consists of Baron Guy de Rothschild, Evelyn de Rothschild, George Pratt Shultz, Robert Roosa (from Bush's family firm of Brown Brothers Harriman) and one vacancy, at this writing. In the past several years, members of the Council who have died include Averill Harriman, Lord Victor Rothschild, and Prince Thurn und Taxis of Regensburg, Germany. None of them holds public office, but they choose who shall hold office in the nations".
The Rockefeller family has been partners in crime with Rothschild since the 19th century (they haven even intermarried) and the Rockefeller Foundation plays a major role in controlling health care.
Mullins has also published a book that’s more closely to the topic of vaccinations (Murder by injection) but unfortunately he didn’t understand enough of medicine to be able to tackle that topic. He makes some interesting comments on how the Legionnaires’ disease scam was used to vaccinate the US population with the swine flu, which made profits of an estimated 135 million dollar.
In that book Mullins concludes that vaccination is inefficient and causes severe health problems, while he also claims that vaccination causes cancer. For the record I don’t subscribe to his view that the cause of “cancer” is mandatory vaccination.
Here’s an interesting excerpt from that book (but as a whole I don’t recommend reading that one): http://www.whale.to/a/swine_fluq.html

chairman bill wrote:I wonder whether vaccines cause paranoid conspiracy theorists to emerge from what would otherwise have been healthy children?

A lot of people believe that vaccinations causes autism. I sometimes wonder if stupidity is infectious.

Sendraks wrote:

Firestarter wrote: If I follow this reasoning the objective of mandatory vaccination of the poor kids, is to protect the elite for diseases.

Speaking as one of many poor kids from a poor area with other poor kids who got vaccinated, this is bollocks of the purest sort.

So you’re saying that your individual experience is evidence and than claim that anti-vaxxers shouldn’t use individual stories to support their claims?!?

Sendraks wrote:

Firestarter wrote:
I’ve read some horrible stories about the effects of vaccination.

We've all seen the anecdotes about the extremely isolated effects of vaccination. But, no anti-vaxxer ever bothers to talk about the millions of people who didn't have a horrible experience and simply went on to live their lives free from some truly horrible diseases.

There are far, far, far more horrible stories about the effects of smallpox on people than there are or ever will be about the effects of vaccination.

I haven’t found many stories like the following example about the adopted HIV-positive baby Lindsey. I agree that presenting individual cases isn’t (real) science. Collecting hundreds of stories as touching as this could be used to wake up the masses of the genocide that’s being done under the guise of AIDS.
These are extracts from the Duesberg book.
Before treatment: "She is [a] very bright, smiling and happy girl," noted the doctor. Lindsey was prescribed Septra, to be taken three times each week. Septra can cause "nausea, vomiting, anorexia," and "bone marrow depression," and also includes "rash, fever, [and] leukopenia" among its side effects.
A week later the doctor prescribed AZT (a chemotherapeutic drug designed to kill growing cells). Lindsey began swallowing a total of 120 milligrams of the drug every single day, in addition to her Septra. AZT kills dividing cells anywhere in the body-causing ulcerations and haemorrhaging; damage to hair follicles and skin; killing mitochondria, the energy cells of the brain; wasting away of muscles; and the destruction of the immune system and other blood cells.
The following month, the doctor strangely began praising Lindsey's "improvement." Upon reflection, the Nagels grew puzzled. What "improvement" could the doctor have meant, since Lindsey had suffered no medical problems at all before the treatment began? By the time Lindsey reached her first birthday on October 15, 1991, her adoptive parents began to lose patience. Becoming suspicious of their doctor for not admitting or discussing these “side effects”, Steve and Cheryl took Lindsey to Dr. Margaret Hostetter at the University of Minnesota clinic.
Hostetter immediately ended the Septra prescription, while increasing Lindsey's AZT dosage. At the Nagels' next visit she credited the baby girl's improvement to the AZT. In fact, she discussed plans to increase the AZT yet again. The doctor praised Lindsey's nonexistent progress at each visit. A few weeks later, the doctor had stretched the Nagels' patience by pressuring them to put Lindsey on ddI (a chemotherapy like AZT).
The tension finally erupted a few days after Lindsey's second birthday on October 15, 1992. Steve and Cheryl woke up one night to the tormented screams of their daughter. The muscle pains were unbearable. Leg massages, Tylenol-they used anything that would allow Lindsey to sleep again.
After the Nagels stopped poisoning Lindsey with AZT, she became a "new" child almost overnight. She started sleeping much better, including longer hours ... Her muscle cramps went away. She started eating at least 2-3 times as much every day as she had ever eaten before.
Dr. Hostetter verbally attacked the Nagels, as if they were 5 years old, "She also said that there are foster homes to provide care for children who were in Lindsey's predicament! (Living with parents who wouldn't give their daughter AZT)".
On October 15, 1995, Lindsey celebrated her fifth birthday-with HIV and without AZT -in excellent health. According to public health officials, she should already have died of AIDS because babies with HIV are supposed to survive only about two years.

Firestarter wrote:
If President John F. Kennedy would have been more careful to hide his sexual affairs dear Jacky might have tried to prevent his assassination.

OK, you finally got me laughing.

So JFK had to die because Jackie was feeling estranged? Jackie could and would have somehow stopped the bullets fired by Oswald if she only wasn't pissed off that JFK had a side piece or three?

For fuck's sake - is there any dumbass, unsupportable conspiracy theory you DON'T fully believe? Is there anything too ludicrous for you to accept? With so many conspiracies in the world pushed by so many uber-powerful people, how do you muster the courage to leave the house? And how is it that you're still alive, knowing all you do, if the "elites" are so willing to go to such lengths to silence the "truth?"

Vaccination is murder by injection?
It took you some time to work in the evil Jews, but you finally managed. Your shite stinks to high heaven

Piss off.

Firestarter wrote:
Just a few of the many examples about the sexual life of the elite

Uh huh. What a compelling sample size you have.

Firestarter wrote:The absolute top of the pyramid is the family Rothschild (currently led by Baron Jacob Rothschild)

They're probably all vaccinated. People like the Rothschilds dislike the incovenience preventable diseases can cause. It can interfere with their earning massive amounts of cash.

Astroturfers are specialised companies to divert the attention away from criticism on the government and large corporations and spread information to make the establishment more popular.
The astroturfers never provide any interesting information, but mostly spread false rumours. By using several nicknames, they can have a discussion between astroturfers. And by using computers to help them write messages they are able to react very fast: https://sharylattkisson.com/top-10-astroturfers/
One strategy of the astroturfers is to discredit the person behind the “dangerous” information (the Ad hominem attack): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

This shit makes me wish I was dead.

Firestarter wrote:Astroturfers are specialised companies to divert the attention away from criticism on the government and large corporations and spread information to make the establishment more popular.
The astroturfers never provide any interesting information, but mostly spread false rumours. By using several nicknames, they can have a discussion between astroturfers. And by using computers to help them write messages they are able to react very fast: https://sharylattkisson.com/top-10-astroturfers/

Do you even the read the links you post, because it doesn't support the gibberish that precedes it. Never mind that the "research" in the link about these "top 10 companies" is nothing more than the findings of a twitter survey with a pitiful number of respondents.

The thing is, we should rightly be concerned about the misinformation & propaganda put about by individuals, groups & governments, blindly re-broadcast by a media that no longer searches for truth, but looks to sensationalise & titillate, or is happy to be knowingly complicit in the misinforming of the people. If the media had done their job regarding the claims of Iraq's WMD, they could quite probably have prevented Bush & Blair leading us to war. But that wasn't part of the plan, so it never happened. Of course, part of the process of misinformation, is to cast anyone crying 'Conspiracy!' as a deranged fuckwit wearing a tinfoil hat. There are of course a few useful idiots who'll post shit about vaccines, chemtrails, faked moon landings, lizard alien overlords, Jewish bankers & the New World Order, the Illuminati & sundry other bollocks, but there are also those whose job it is to fan the flames of such idiocy, and so drive ever more ridiculous 'theorising', and provide a smokescreen to prevent us noticing the revelations about the really worrying shit that governments & various nefarious groups do. A conspiracy to hide evidence of conspiracies, by creating so many of them, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack-sized pile of needles. And of course, a website with a membership generally concerned with rationality & skepticism, might be one of those places where you want people to reject any claim of conspiracy, so you get someone to post the sort of shit Firestarter has posted here. That's the real conspiracy; shills and their useful idiots, clouding the view, so nobody notices what's really going on, and those that do get swamped by the conspiracy theory noise.

Now, the question is, which category does Firestarter fit into? Do they really believe this shit they've posted, or are they working for some nefarious organisation? The truth is out there ...

Who is Trump working for? Nothing but misinformation comes out of that turd's mouth.

Himself, I imagine.

KeenIdiot wrote:

kiore wrote:I haven't seen stuff like this for a decade, interesting it is still out there.

It tends to die off as a large number of denialists seem to be HIV positive and don't get treatment.

Whistleblowing is a major health risks.
I didn’t find many stories on AIDS-whistleblowers whose lives have been destroyed.

The most interesting story is about Professor Peter H. Duesberg.
In 1991, a government-appointed panel of scientists, decided not to renew Duesberg’s research grants. Before raising questions about the role of HIV in AIDS causation, Duesberg’s grant applications were never denied. Duesberg remains cut off from all NIH funding, and commutes to Germany to conduct his scientific work.
Dr. Kuritzkes demanded that AIDS-denialists like Peter Duesberg be denied access to students and reported to authorities. WSJ reporter Marilyn Chase warned reporters not to unintentionally "exalt the position of denialists by making them seem like just some sort of independent intellectual contrarian whose views really should be heeded”.
On May 13, 2008, Semmelweis Society International (SSI) presented the Semmelweis "Clean Hands" Award to Professor Peter Duesberg and Investigative Journalist Celia Farber. Farber had interviewed Duesberg first in 1988: http://aidswiki.net/index.php?title=Doc ... s_Duesberg

The NIH barred Farber from further contact with their scientists and labelled her a "threat to public health". In May 2008, Richard Jefferys - of the “independent” AIDS Activist group TAG - led the campaign to antagonise the SSI over the Farber/Duesberg awards.
Clark Barker was hired by the SSI to investigate if Duesberg and Farber deserved the award. Immediately some former SSI-members told Barker that Duesberg and Farber are liars and responsible for millions of deaths by AIDS in Africa and insisted that he would stop the investigation. When Barker wouldn’t listen; on June 19th they initiated a "spam attack" against him: http://robertscottbell.blogspot.nl/2008 ... s-egg.html

Bryan J. Ellison in 1994 described how the careers of 5 whistleblowers (including Duesberg) on AIDS were destroyed: http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/newsletters/1994-01.pdf
William R. Holub - After publishing an article in 1988 about AIDS, was blacklisted from work in both industrial biotechnology and academia. He lost his home, was forced into bankruptcy, and now supports his wife and children with a job handling toxic chemicals, supplemented by delivering newspapers.
Philip Artz Kees - Charges were brought against him in 1985 before the California Medical Board after he testified about the promiscuous administration of psychotropic drugs like haldol, prolixine and thorazine at Patton State Hospital, which according to him resulted in immune deficiency (AIDS). His medical license was suspended (revoked in 1992), which led to bankruptcy.
Edward J. Wawszkiewicz – After publishing questions about the established AIDS thinking, was suddenly labelled "mentally ill" by the University in 1986, forced to stop teaching and with no salary and is now (1994) struggling to stay alive on food stamps.
Nathaniel S. Lehrman – Was critical of the official AIDS story since 1985. He was set up by his colleague, was persecuted for Medicaid fraud that this colleague had committed, lost his medical license. He was convicted in 1991 to 1-3 years in prison, $250,000 in "restitution" and a fine of $100,000 by a Health Department administrative judge.

Johan Van Dongen from the Netherlands discovered that Aids and Ebola were manmade. He lost his job at the University of Maastricht and his house: http://eboladeception.com/professor-joh ... t-detrick/

Firestarter wrote:...
Whistleblowing is a major health risks.

I’ll bet it’s the peas, eh? Bloody peas getting stuck in the throats of our best referees. Have you sent your data to the World sports governing bodies?

I didn’t find many stories on AIDS-whistleblowers whose lives have been destroyed.

Phew! Perhaps the risk has been exaggerated then. But still, you shouldn't rely on stories to support your wibble - data is preferred. Got any?

Firestarter wrote:

KeenIdiot wrote:

kiore wrote:I haven't seen stuff like this for a decade, interesting it is still out there.

It tends to die off as a large number of denialists seem to be HIV positive and don't get treatment.

Whistleblowing is a major health risks.
I didn’t find many stories on AIDS-whistleblowers whose lives have been destroyed.

The most interesting story is about Professor Peter H. Duesberg.
In 1991, a government-appointed panel of scientists, decided not to renew Duesberg’s research grants. Before raising questions about the role of HIV in AIDS causation, Duesberg’s grant applications were never denied. Duesberg remains cut off from all NIH funding, and commutes to Germany to conduct his scientific work.
Dr. Kuritzkes demanded that AIDS-denialists like Peter Duesberg be denied access to students and reported to authorities. WSJ reporter Marilyn Chase warned reporters not to unintentionally "exalt the position of denialists by making them seem like just some sort of independent intellectual contrarian whose views really should be heeded”.
On May 13, 2008, Semmelweis Society International (SSI) presented the Semmelweis "Clean Hands" Award to Professor Peter Duesberg and Investigative Journalist Celia Farber. Farber had interviewed Duesberg first in 1988: http://aidswiki.net/index.php?title=Doc ... s_Duesberg

The NIH barred Farber from further contact with their scientists and labelled her a "threat to public health". In May 2008, Richard Jefferys - of the “independent” AIDS Activist group TAG - led the campaign to antagonise the SSI over the Farber/Duesberg awards.
Clark Barker was hired by the SSI to investigate if Duesberg and Farber deserved the award. Immediately some former SSI-members told Barker that Duesberg and Farber are liars and responsible for millions of deaths by AIDS in Africa and insisted that he would stop the investigation. When Barker wouldn’t listen; on June 19th they initiated a "spam attack" against him: http://robertscottbell.blogspot.nl/2008 ... s-egg.html

Bryan J. Ellison in 1994 described how the careers of 5 whistleblowers (including Duesberg) on AIDS were destroyed: http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/newsletters/1994-01.pdf
William R. Holub - After publishing an article in 1988 about AIDS, was blacklisted from work in both industrial biotechnology and academia. He lost his home, was forced into bankruptcy, and now supports his wife and children with a job handling toxic chemicals, supplemented by delivering newspapers.
Philip Artz Kees - Charges were brought against him in 1985 before the California Medical Board after he testified about the promiscuous administration of psychotropic drugs like haldol, prolixine and thorazine at Patton State Hospital, which according to him resulted in immune deficiency (AIDS). His medical license was suspended (revoked in 1992), which led to bankruptcy.
Edward J. Wawszkiewicz – After publishing questions about the established AIDS thinking, was suddenly labelled "mentally ill" by the University in 1986, forced to stop teaching and with no salary and is now (1994) struggling to stay alive on food stamps.
Nathaniel S. Lehrman – Was critical of the official AIDS story since 1985. He was set up by his colleague, was persecuted for Medicaid fraud that this colleague had committed, lost his medical license. He was convicted in 1991 to 1-3 years in prison, $250,000 in "restitution" and a fine of $100,000 by a Health Department administrative judge.

Johan Van Dongen from the Netherlands discovered that Aids and Ebola were manmade. He lost his job at the University of Maastricht and his house: http://eboladeception.com/professor-joh ... t-detrick/

It pleases me greatly to learn that these irresponsible crackpots suffer consequences for the lies they tell, and that appropriate steps are taken to limit the death and suffering they might cause. Thank you for one of the most encouraging and reassuring things I have read in a long time.