Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

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Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#1  Postby NESW » Jan 25, 2014 4:15 pm

By far the strangest ideas I have ever come across is by use of quantum physics.
I have read
http://monkeywah.typepad.com/paranormal ... t-ted.html and from there
As Stephen hasn't replied as yet I would venture to suggest that he may mean the following:

The existence of dark matter / dark energy carries no "spiritual" implications and hence is not a taboo subject among materialists.

The existence of psi, however - if shown to be valid - would imply that the mind operates beyond the brain. This poses all sorts of problems, because it might imply the existence of a "soul" or non-material aspect of the mind.
For materialists this is taboo.

I personally like the statement by Richard Conn Henry, Professor of Physics & Astronomy at Johns Hopkins, that after 40 years of teaching physics he realized he could no longer remain a materialist, for the simple reason that there is no material! (See his essay 'The Mental Universe' - published in 'Nature', no less - available online.) In Henry's view, the universe is entirely mental. This was also the opinion of his scientific hero Sir Arthur Eddington.

Professor Henry has said much the same as Stephen's comment - he said that quantum physics shows the universe to be wholly mental in character, (a Great Thought rather than a Great Machine, in Eddington's phrase) and that the failure of most scientists to accept this is a psychological problem, not a physics problem. In other words, "non-scientific factors" influence scientists' beliefs.

See also the books of scientist/philosopher Bernardo Kastrup for a similar explanation of our "dreamed-up reality".


I have done some research on that guy 'Bernardo Kastrup'

(Both of these talk about his ideas and aligning them with Sheldrake's Morphic Field)

http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2012/03/ ... rphic.html



http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2012/03/ ... brain.html

Now here is the crucial point I want to make: According to the non-materialist hypotheses, certain brain activity patterns are, in a way, analogous to 'keys' that 'unlock' (not necessarily in a causal, but perhaps a synchronistic manner) the awareness of certain phenomena; phenomena that would otherwise be either unavailable to consciousness ('transmission' hypothesis) or kept out of it ('filter' and 'knot of consciousness' hypotheses). So why should it be different in the case of memories? Why shouldn't access to memories be correlated to 'keying' brain activity (which Rupert Sheldrake would call 'resonant' activity)? If the non-materialist hypotheses are to be internally consistent, that should in fact be the case. If physical events are found in the brain that correlate with memory access, that in itself would not contradict any of the non-materialist hypotheses, but in fact reinforce their internal consistency. Proponents of the non-materialist hypotheses should look forward to the discovery of clear physical correlates of memory access.


But one thing must be made clear: The non-materialist hypotheses entail that certain activity in the brain should correlate with memory access; but not necessarily that these physical correlates carry the entire information entailed by the corresponding memory. As Sheldrake explained through a clever metaphor, the 'transmission' hypothesis, for instance, looks upon the brain as a kind of TV tuner. Think of an old analog TV set: The electrical activity in the tuner circuitry causes it to resonate with a broadcast electromagnetic field in the air. It is the latter that carries the information of the TV show one watches, not the tuner. Nonetheless, activity in the tuner correlates well with the programming and, in fact, 'keys' into it. Naturally, trying to crack the TV tuner open to find the information corresponding to last night's show is futile, despite the correlation observed when the show was being watched through the 'keying' action of the tuner.


I've read it here: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~braude/pdfs_ ... ialism.pdf. I agree with Braude's key criticism that morphic fields cannot be objective, autonomous, mechanistic entities in nature, as proposed by Sheldrake (a criticism Braude repeats in different forms, and justifies in different ways, throughout the paper above). As Braude put it: "Sheldrake seems to take the hard-line Platonist view that morphic units and their associated morphic fields are natural kinds -- i.e. items in an interest-, purpose-, and context-independent set of natural furniture." As Braude, I also disagree with Sheldrake's views here, and wrote about it before: http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2012/03/ ... rphic.html. I think the evidence Sheldrake assembles for the hypothesis that nature forms "habits" is indeed compelling, but it is rather evidence of idealism (i.e. nature as essentially mind, since mind forms habits), instead of objective morphic units as autonomous parts of the "furniture of nature." Morphic fields, in my opinion, are still valid as explanatory metaphors, not autonomous ontological entities, and Braude himself seems to agree.
I do disagree with Braude in his criticism of the resonance model. He claims that resonance doesn't work since similarity is not built into nature but depends on a subjective evaluation by human minds. The latter point is true, but Sheldrake uses the word "similarity" metaphorically. Resonance is a physical phenomenon that does happen between two systems capable of resonating with each other regardless of our opinions regarding their similarities. A famous example of resonance is between wind and a bridge (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Nar ... nal_bridge), which are hardly similar entities. Therefore, on this point, I depart from Braude and stay with the resonance metaphor, which I think is valid. Braude's argument rests entirely on Sheldrake's use of the word "similarity" and misses the deeper point. Under idealism, you could say that thoughts (oscillations in the medium of mind) can indeed resonate with other thoughts that are amenable to resonance (whether we think these thoughts are similar or not; in fact, we could even _define_ "similar" as "amenable to resonance").


I have also found articles relating to link ESP and his dualism world view.

Great interview, although I have some points to discuss.First, it seems clear that the fact that decreasing brain activity tends to increase mental activity, falsifies the production hypothesis and confirms the filter hypothesis, but I believe that psi phenomena such as clairvoyance are a stronger support for the filter hypothesis, because the ESP would be just what happens when consciousness reaches certain information that has not been filtered by the brain.And second, over idealism, materialism and dualism, I would stay with dualism due to psychic phenomena, but rejected the idealism because it seems rather unintuitive. I only accept idealism if the connection between our will and events materials be stronger and more obvious, but considering that the reality actually offers considerable resistance to our will, idealism does not seem reasonable.[/quote]

Then, Bernardo responds by
Juan, depth psychology has consistently shown that aspects of our unconscious minds are quasi-objective; that is, independent of egoic will. If those unconscious aspects are productive, they could reconcile idealism with the indisputable fact that reality is not very acquiescent to our egoic wishes. There are other explanations though, like the idea that reality may be an emergent phenomenon of mind interactions. All this said, I personally entertain Dualism as a valid metaphor... as something perhaps "true enough," even while not considering it the ultimate truth.


Found in the comments section http://www.skeptiko.com/bernardo-kastru ... -research/

He is interviewed here as well, http://www.exploreyourspirit.com/blog/t ... RIq6v.dpbs and here http://www.etvita.com/2013/03/making-ca ... -vita.html

What the hell are they talking about? Can you guys help disprove it?
Wow I feel like I have gone down a deep rabbit hole. My attempts to disprove ESP really made me go much deeper in deep subjects like materialism vs idealism vs dualism. I myself, am an objectivist and a materialist. I read up the wikipedia article on Quantum Mysticism and they have really radical ideas. I have absolutely no idea what they talk about there. The scientists I have mentioned from the comments above, Richard Conn Henry/Sir Arthur Eddington and also from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism, Professors Richard Conn Henry and Stephen R. Palmquist, commenting on that paper, stated: "Now we are beginning to see that quantum mechanics might actually exclude any possibility of mind-independent reality and already does exclude any reality that resembles our usual concept of such (Aspect: 'it implies renouncing the kind of realism I would have liked')." They concluded their commentary by adding that in their view, because of these findings, "a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism
Professors Richard Conn Henry and Stephen R. Palmquist, commenting on that paper, stated: "Now we are beginning to see that quantum mechanics might actually exclude any possibility of mind-independent reality and already does exclude any reality that resembles our usual concept of such (Aspect: 'it implies renouncing the kind of realism I would have liked')." They concluded their commentary by adding that in their view, because of these findings, "a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism
. I really have a hard time accepting that the mind is all there is or whatever the $%^& they are saying or even yet we are in a dream? or solipsism? or that we are in a matrix? What the hell are they saying.

So can you try to debunk the Bernardo guy with his links to morphic resonance/telepathy? Or basically if you cant, can you guys tell me what he is talking about? I have no idea.

And btw, does anybody know why google search suggestions has Rupert sheldrake and alan watts summed together? Any similarities between them?
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#2  Postby don salmon » Aug 01, 2014 8:31 pm

Hi,

I don't understand the confusion.

Look at your computer screen. What are you aware of? Do you have direct contact with a wholly mind independent object? Of course not. That would be a contradiction. If you are aware of it, it is not mind independent.

All you know are what I call 'forms in awareness". "Forms" includes all that we refer to as sense objects (computer screen, walls, floors, trees, cats, etc) as well as thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc.

Next you would ask, well, what exists outside my individual awareness? Surely I'm not advocating solipsism? no, I'm not advocating any philosophy. Just the simplest observation possible. if we must make an inference about what exists outside of and independent of our personal awareness, why not choose something which adds the fewest inferences - that would be, "forms in awareness".

The materialist posits a wholly unknowable, shadow, abstract world which is unknowable in principle, and which bears utterly no resemblance to anything we experience. For the materialist, the trees, clouds, computer screens, suns, stars, etc are merely images constructed by our brains, existing entirely within the confines of our own skulls, and are mere copies of some unknowable, purely abstract world entirely independent not only of our minds but of any awareness whatsoever. And this can never be proved nor can we ever produce even one piece of evidence for it.

Worse still, the materialist asks us to believe in several miracles. Assume the entire 14 billion year history of the cosmos took place in the last 24 hours. First you have absolutely nothing. Then by utter chance, in a mindless void, a chaos of energy appears. A few nanoseconds later that chaotic energy begins to behave in some kind of regular fashion, and particles, elements, and various "forms" (stars, planets, etc) appear. Now fast forward, and imagine that it's near the end of our universe and tomorrow the whole thing dissolves into chaos.

Then the whole thing starts over again. That's what some materialists believe happens.

Now suppose the next time it happens, it only lasts 12 hours, but after the first 6 hours, those patterns or regularities (what some call laws of nature) change completely. In a materialist view, since the patterns emerge by chance and are not sustained by anything but chance, there's no reason why they couldn't change. That means right at this moment, there's no reason why the laws of nature might not change utterly and completely.

Why in the world would anybody possibly believe in such an absurd abstract view, one that posits a shadow world, utterly unknowable for which we could never have any evidence, one which comes about in a miraculous inexplicable way and which could change any moment or simply dissolve back into chaos at any moment?

Why not just accept our experience of forms in awareness and assume, following the rule of parsimony, that that's really the way the world is, and that the trees we see and sounds we hear are not merely constructs of our brain and copies of some abstract world but the real deal? Everything is so simple this way; there's no hard problem of consciousness; cosmology makes sense, evolution makes sense and the mind brain relationship ("brain" simply being another form in awareness, an image of mental processes) makes perfect sense. So simple and so easy, and all that keeps us from seeing it is a purely emotional, irrational attachment to the modern age's version of the flat earth theory.
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#3  Postby LucidFlight » Aug 02, 2014 1:09 pm

:wave:

Welcome to the fora, don salmon.

Another idealist, by the looks of things? jamest (another member here) will be ecstatic to meet you, I'm sure. In the meantime, make yourself at home. I'm just going to go grab some popcorn now. Have a great discussion guys. This thread bump is on me.

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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#4  Postby don salmon » Aug 02, 2014 1:15 pm

Well, non dualist, actually. Idealism retains too much of the irrationality of materialism/physicalism for my taste:>)) (just thought I'd add that to increase the fun of the debate!)

who is jamest?

And maybe you could tell me a bit about what this site is about. I saw the note, in the midst of a search - natchurally! - about Bernardo Kastrup, and thought I'd jump in to add my 2 cents.

I'm developing a number of illustrations of the absurd implications of physicalism, and I'm hoping the people here are interested in real rational debate instead of the usual ad hominem attacks (woo! Why don't you just close your eyes and the moon will go away - go back to Chopra-land) that you find among people who - oddly enough - claim to be in favor of reason.

Most recently I'm trying to understand what the reasoning is behind "laws of nature" - which seem to be simply unsupportable as any kind of explanation in a mindless universe. That's what I very briefly - and probably badly - tried to get across in the post above.

Very rarely, I'll actually mention evidence for psi, but since most debates don't' know anything about statistics or research methodology (I've had to learn it to conduct research) there doesn't seem to be any value in actually talking about scientific research (another odd thing about talking to people who will claim anyone who doesn't believe in physicalism is unscientific, and that they're only supporting science and reason, yet they have no idea how to do science).

Well, hopefully it will be different here. I'm looking forward to a good intelligent debate.
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#5  Postby LucidFlight » Aug 02, 2014 1:31 pm

Non-dualist. I like that. Does that imply monism? I'm not entirely sure.

jamest is probably our most popular idealist here. You find him in the Philosophy forum, usually. He's our resident expert on metaphysics and observed reality. I'm sure you will enjoy some quite fruitful discussions with him. He's a bit busy at the moment with studies, but does tend to pop in on a regular basis.

This place was born when the Richard Dawkins forum received a significant overhaul. Pretty much the entire membership was purged and people came here instead. There's a lot of discussions about philosophy, ethics, politics, science, and so on. I would suggest viewing New posts to get an idea of the current hot topics.

There's a good mix of people here, with all sorts of backgrounds and interests - religious, philosophical, political, etc. I'm sure you will have a lot of fun.

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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#6  Postby campermon » Aug 02, 2014 1:31 pm

Lots of 'isms' - check
Lots of woolly terms - check
The promise of evidence for psi - check

Yup; it's in the right forum.

and

Welcome don salmon!

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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#7  Postby campermon » Aug 02, 2014 1:44 pm

don salmon wrote:

Most recently I'm trying to understand what the reasoning is behind "laws of nature" - which seem to be simply unsupportable as any kind of explanation in a mindless universe. That's what I very briefly - and probably badly - tried to get across in the post above.


Scientific laws are not explanations. You'll want to look at scientific theories for explanations. :thumbup:

don salmon wrote:
Very rarely, I'll actually mention evidence for psi,

Yes please. We've had many here who have promised the same but never deliver the goods.
don salmon wrote:
but since most debates don't' know anything about statistics or research methodology (I've had to learn it to conduct research) there doesn't seem to be any value in actually talking about scientific research (another odd thing about talking to people who will claim anyone who doesn't believe in physicalism is unscientific, and that they're only supporting science and reason, yet they have no idea how to do science).

I'll think that you'll find many members here who are amply educated to discuss statistics and research methodology. In fact, some of them are working scientists.

don salmon wrote:
Well, hopefully it will be different here. I'm looking forward to a good intelligent debate.


Me too. Just as soon as you cite that psi evidence you mentioned.

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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#8  Postby Arnold Layne » Aug 02, 2014 1:53 pm

Welcome, don.

You'll have fun here, for sure.

jamest is God, you'll find. In fact, we all are! :smoke:
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#9  Postby surreptitious57 » Aug 02, 2014 2:15 pm

don salmon wrote:
who is jamest? And maybe you could tell me a bit about what this site is about

james is our resident idealist here who is unfortunately surrounded by materialists who do not share his worldview
but now you are here and the number has doubled it should make for even more interesting and provocative debate

This site is where anything you say outside of Social And Fun can and will be scrutinised with atomic accuracy by
some very serious minds indeed and some not so serious ones [ just to balance things out ] Now long as you have no
objection to this happening on an eternal basis then this is the ideal place for you. We are very opinionated about any
thing and everything here so there is never a dull moment. We do not tolerate attacking the individual but attacking
the idea is perfectly acceptable and actually encouraged. So long as you remember never to step over that line then
everything will be absolutely hunky dory just like it is now and always was

So welcome to Rat Skep don and I hope your stay here will be both long and happy and memorable
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#10  Postby surreptitious57 » Aug 02, 2014 2:15 pm

don salmon wrote:
who is jamest? And maybe you could tell me a bit about what this site is about

james is our resident idealist here who is unfortunately surrounded by materialists who do not share his worldview
but now you are here and the number has doubled it should make for even more interesting and provocative debate

This site is where anything you say outside of Social And Fun can and will be scrutinised with atomic accuracy by
some very serious minds indeed and some not so serious ones [ just to balance things out ] Now long as you have no
objection to this happening on an eternal basis then this is the ideal place for you. We are very opinionated about any
thing and everything here so there is never a dull moment. We do not tolerate attacking the individual but attacking
the idea is perfectly acceptable and actually encouraged. So long as you remember never to step over that line then
everything will be absolutely hunky dory just like it is now and always was

So welcome to Rat Skep don and I hope your stay here will be both long and happy and memorable
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#11  Postby laklak » Aug 02, 2014 2:39 pm

You posted that twice, surr, is that evidence for dualism?
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#12  Postby campermon » Aug 02, 2014 2:45 pm

laklak wrote:You posted that twice, surr, is that evidence for dualism?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

*beer on keyboard moment*

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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#13  Postby DavidMcC » Aug 02, 2014 3:45 pm

don salmon wrote:...

The materialist posits a wholly unknowable, shadow, abstract world which is unknowable in principle, and which bears utterly no resemblance to anything we experience. For the materialist, the trees, clouds, computer screens, suns, stars, etc are merely images constructed by our brains, existing entirely within the confines of our own skulls, and are mere copies of some unknowable, purely abstract world entirely independent not only of our minds but of any awareness whatsoever. And this can never be proved nor can we ever produce even one piece of evidence for it.

...

I don't recognise that version of materialism, Don.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism
Materialism
In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all emergent phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions. In other words, the theory claims that our reality consists entirely of physical matter that is the sole cause of every possible occurrence, including human thought, feeling, and action.

Materialism is typically considered to be closely related to, or synonymous with, physicalism.


It is true that we rely on mental images of the outside world for our information about that world, so I can only guess that you are referring to theoretical particle physics, when you say how utterly different it is all supposed to be. However, that is only a result of looking at the world at the sub-nanoscopic level, and seeing only atoms, or fundamental particles. Such an apparent disconnect ignores the fact that those particles are bound into the atoms and molecules that make up the world we ARE familiar with.
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#14  Postby laklak » Aug 02, 2014 4:00 pm

Get smacked upside the head with a 2x4 and then we'll talk about materialism.
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#15  Postby DavidMcC » Aug 02, 2014 4:43 pm

laklak wrote:Get smacked upside the head with a 2x4 and then we'll talk about materialism.

Who are you talking to?
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#16  Postby LucidFlight » Aug 02, 2014 4:47 pm

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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#17  Postby DavidMcC » Aug 02, 2014 5:17 pm

LucidFlight wrote:

Ha! I was definitely going to shoot him if he was talking to me (as the last poster at the time)! :lol:
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#18  Postby DavidMcC » Aug 02, 2014 5:32 pm

NESW wrote:...First, it seems clear that the fact that decreasing brain activity tends to increase mental activity, falsifies the production hypothesis and confirms the filter hypothesis,...

You're all over the place here, NESW. A "decrease in brain activity" that tends to increase mental activity is likely the result of decreased inhibitory synaptic activity, unblocking excitatory activity.
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#19  Postby laklak » Aug 02, 2014 5:38 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
laklak wrote:Get smacked upside the head with a 2x4 and then we'll talk about materialism.

Who are you talking to?


Anti-materialists, or immaterialists, or whatever they're called.
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Re: Idealism/Dualism and Telepathy

#20  Postby LucidFlight » Aug 02, 2014 5:44 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
NESW wrote:...First, it seems clear that the fact that decreasing brain activity tends to increase mental activity, falsifies the production hypothesis and confirms the filter hypothesis,...

You're all over the place here, NESW. A "decrease in brain activity" that tends to increase mental activity is likely the result of decreased inhibitory synaptic activity, unblocking excitatory activity.


I think NESW is quoting somebody there, but the quotes got screwed up.

Those words are from a comment by Juan on this article:
http://www.skeptiko.com/bernardo-kastru ... -research/

Also, I see NESW's OP is posted here as well, complete with the same screwed up quotes:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... do+Kastrup
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