Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

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Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#1  Postby the_5th_ape » Jun 02, 2012 7:21 am


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http://www.americanchinesemedicineassoc ... herapy.htm

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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#2  Postby juju7 » Jun 02, 2012 7:29 am

I can believe this. My father died 2 weeks into Chemo.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#3  Postby The_Metatron » Jun 02, 2012 7:49 am

This source is worthless.

But, my Mom's partner recently died of lung cancer. He went through the usual chemotherapy. It may have given him a few extra weeks of life. They were shitty weeks. In retrospect, it was probably poor decision to do the chemotherapy.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#4  Postby Fenrir » Jun 02, 2012 8:07 am

Apart from worthless, it's downright dangerous.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#5  Postby Fenrir » Jun 02, 2012 8:09 am

and libellous slander into the bargain.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#6  Postby byofrcs » Jun 02, 2012 8:19 am

The study in the Journal of Clinical Oncology in December 2004 called “The Contribution of Cytotoxic Chemotherapy to 5-year Survival in Adult Malignancies” attributed quite low percentage of survival to the chemotherapy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15630849

On the other hand it is utterly unlikely that whatever the ACMA Cancer Treatment is will have any effect at all. Without any links to clinical trials and without a clue as to what is in the stuff I think we can safely call the ACMA Cancer Treatments fraudulent.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#7  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 02, 2012 10:01 am

Simple choice:

Guaranteed to die in 6 months.
10% chance of living for 5 years.

Which would you take?
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#8  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 02, 2012 10:02 am

The mainstream media, of course, still insist Snow died from colon cancer, thus perpetuating the myth that it is only the cancer that kills people, not the treatment. Nobody seems to raise the important point that it is extremely difficult for a cancer patient to actually heal from this condition while being subjected to the systemic poisons of chemotherapy and deadly radiation.


Heal from cancer? Get the fuck out you snake oil peddler.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#9  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jun 02, 2012 10:06 am

Most cancer patients die of cancer.

Chemo's toxic. When it works though it allows a much longer lifespan than you would have been provided had the cancer been allowed to progress normally. Your life will be shorter than it would have been had you never had cancer but longer than it would have been had you had cancer and no chemo.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#10  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 02, 2012 10:12 am

Chemotherapy is horse medicine.

My late girl friend who died in 2002 had cell cancer. She had chemotherapy twice it did not help in fact it made her condition worse. In the end she wanted euthonasia which she was given.

I would like to see hard data for the 10% chance of living for 5 years. I dont believe it.

The choice is not simple. Six months of quality life of five years of hell. I know what I would choose.
Chemotherapy ruins the body and has so many side effects and should only be used when there is a sizable chance of a cure.

The Dutch doctors association have started a discussion regarding the cost of maintaining the life of some one in their last phase of life and the cost and time involved.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#11  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 02, 2012 10:14 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
I would like to see hard data for the 10% chance of living for 5 years. I dont believe it.


You undoubtedly note that I didn't remotely suggest that these are the actual figures based on 'hard data', but merely a thought experiment.

As for the 'horse medicine' line, I think I addressed that already even if not directed at you.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#12  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jun 02, 2012 10:15 am

Every cancer is different as is every chemotherapy regimen so blanket statements just don't apply to the discussion of chemotherapy cost/benefit analysis.

We've all seen someone suffer through chemo and die. It's not a valid argument against.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#13  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 02, 2012 10:17 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Every cancer is different as is every chemotherapy regimen so blanket statements just don't apply to the discussion of chemotherapy cost/benefit analysis.

We've all seen someone suffer through chemo and die. It's not a valid argument against.


Precisely: As, I expect, we've all seen someone die from cancer without undergoing chemotherapy.

It's the cancer that's the killer, and the chemotherapy is a calculated risk fully explained to the patients. No patient goes into chemo thinking 'Well, that's me sorted - I'll be right as rain in a few days cos the doc promised me'.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#14  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 02, 2012 10:22 am

http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer ... on-cancers

As Rachel said, generalising about cancer as if it were a single type of medical complaint is indicative of paucity of comprehension.

Also to note from the above website is:

The discovery of serum markers in the late 1960s and the introduction of combination chemotherapy in the 1970s have proved highly effective in treating testicular cancer.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#15  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 02, 2012 10:26 am

And one final comment on the matter - anecdotes are not statistically significant. It's certainly of human interest to hear of these personal experiences of cancer, but to extrapolate from them is ludicrous.

To add an anecdote of my own with no generalised extrapolation: my grandmother died of cancer a decade or so ago. The doctors advised her against chemotherapy as she was unlikely to survive the procedure, the chances of it being beneficial were minimal, and it would have caused her final days to be even worse than simply suffering through the pain of cancer. She fully agreed and died as predicted within a very short period of time.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#16  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jun 02, 2012 10:27 am

Oh, goodness no! The amount of research going into the production of non-toxic chemo is enormous because it's so glaringly obvious that, even when this therapy works, it causes irreperable harm. We don't want that!

The notion your body can just heal from cancer is what's absolutely fucking ridiculous. Once you've got detectable tumours it's because your body has failed to destroy malignant cells and they are dividing. The likelihood of even a tiny breast tumour clearing on it's own is very poor.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#17  Postby Regina » Jun 02, 2012 11:33 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Oh, goodness no! The amount of research going into the production of non-toxic chemo is enormous because it's so glaringly obvious that, even when this therapy works, it causes irreperable harm. We don't want that!

The notion your body can just heal from cancer is what's absolutely fucking ridiculous. Once you've got detectable tumours it's because your body has failed to destroy malignant cells and they are dividing. The likelihood of even a tiny breast tumour clearing on it's own is very poor.

Nope, surprisingly, it's not. At least not with breast cancer. But of course, that's NO argument against chemotherapy.

Frequency of spontaneous regression in cancer

It has long been assumed that spontaneous regressions, let alone cures, from cancer are rare phenomena, and that some forms of cancer are more prone to unexpected courses (melanoma, neuroblastoma, lymphoma) than others (carcinoma). Frequency was estimated to be about 1 in 100,000 cancers;[2] however, in reality this ratio might be largely under- or over-estimated. For one, not all cases of spontaneous regression can be apprehended, either because the case was not well documented or the physician was not willing or literate enough to publish, or simply because the patient did not show up in a clinic any more. On the other hand, for the past 100 years almost all cancer patients have been treated in one way or the other, such that the influence of treatment cannot always be excluded.

At least for small tumors the frequency of spontaneous regression most likely was drastically underrated. In a carefully designed study on mammography it was found that 22% of all breast cancer cases underwent spontaneous regression.[3]

Source: Wikipedia
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#18  Postby Shrunk » Jun 02, 2012 11:38 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Chemotherapy is horse medicine.

My late girl friend who died in 2002 had cell cancer. She had chemotherapy twice it did not help in fact it made her condition worse. In the end she wanted euthonasia which she was given.

I would like to see hard data for the 10% chance of living for 5 years. I dont believe it.

The choice is not simple. Six months of quality life of five years of hell. I know what I would choose.


And someone else might well choose differently. Expecially since the more plausible choice is between six months of rather poor quality of life, vs a few weeks of living hell with chemo, followed by five years of good quality life that you would not have had otherwise. Treatment can still be of benefit if it does not cure.

BTW, while perhaps not strictly on topic, this article by Stephen Jay Gould should be required reading for anyone trying to make sense of cancer survival statistics:

http://cancerguide.org/median_not_msg.html
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#19  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 02, 2012 3:58 pm

My girl friend had cell cancer not tumor.

After the first chemo it appeared to have cleaned it up and for a year it seemed to be going well but then it reappeared with a vengence. Her body was so weakened by the chemo it could not fight anymore. They gave her another course but it had no effect.
She then took part in a experiment that was being tried out in a few other countries. She was given a marrow transplant from her brother. The idea that any white blood cells generated from this marrow would recognise the cancer cells and destroy them as her own white blood cells were not doing. She died to quickly for any effect to show.
Her mother, two sisters had cancer (different types) all were treated with chemo and only the oldest sister survived.
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Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#20  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 02, 2012 6:16 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:My girl friend had cell cancer not tumor.

After the first chemo it appeared to have cleaned it up and for a year it seemed to be going well but then it reappeared with a vengence.


How long did they expect her to live without the treatment?


Scot Dutchy wrote: Her body was so weakened by the chemo it could not fight anymore.


Bear in mind that the cancer was weakening her too. It's a calculated risk towards a better outcome than doing nothing.
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