Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

Discussions on astrology, homeopathy and superstition etc.

Moderators: Calilasseia, DarthHelmet86, Onyx8

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#41  Postby Shrunk » Jun 16, 2012 2:57 pm

epepke wrote:It would be of no relevance, if and only if there were some clear studies that very carefully controlled for this effect. They would, rather obviously, be valid independently from this effect.

I don't know if there are such studies. If there are, then I think that decisions based on them would be perfectly valid. I don't know, however, that this is the case.

What I think I know is that most decisions made about chemotherapy aren't so careful. I think that a culture of casual chemotherapy and radiotherapy has evolved on the basis of not being particularly careful

You may think I'm being anal or picky, but I think this is fairly important.

ETA: Note that I do not know this for certain. However, bald assertions that cancers, or cancers of certain kinds can be treated with chemotherapy if caught early enough, strike me as a bit vapid. I don't know what evidence, if any, there are.


If you're interested, you might try looking at this example, which lists a series of protocols for treatment of breast cancer based on staging of the disease. Each treatment is accompanied by a hyperlink that provides the list of studies upon which the recommendation is based. To be honest, the only "bald assertions" seem to be coming from you.

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/ ... onal/page1
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#42  Postby Mr.Samsa » Jun 17, 2012 6:22 am

epepke wrote:This is quite similar to some of the hassles I have with e.g. Mr. Samsa that I have. A lot, seems to me, to be applied willy-nilly as best practice according to a goodness by definition. The evidence presented seems to consist of cases where there is some limited evidence of something working in some cases. There often turns out to be very little evidence that is distinguishable from confirmation bias.

Practitioners, moreover, are assumed to do the right things. When I point out cases where practitioners do wrong things, I am told that they are incompetent with the belief that they therefore do not count. But they do count, because they are doing things that harm people. They are part of the social game, and they seem to justify their decisions (or they are justified for them) in ways largely indistinguishable from the ways people justify the good things.

I did science for many years, and I know how damnably hard it is to get your stuff right. By the time it gets to clinical practice, though, this difficulty seems to get filtered out.


I feel that this is a pretty inaccurate description of my position in these threads. Typically I am arguing against the idea that psychology or psychiatry is useless, or making people worse, or that psychology isn't a science, etc - that is, I argue against broad generalisations that attempt to discredit an entire field based on the argument that some practices or practitioners within the field are not evidence-based or optimal. In such a case, it is entirely fair and accurate to point out that such examples or exclusions don't affect the field as a whole - e.g. psychiatry is not flawed because a psychiatrist in the field told a patient that their problems were caused by a chemical imbalance (thus going against the consensus of the field).
Image
Mr.Samsa
 
Posts: 11370
Age: 34

Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#43  Postby juju7 » Jun 17, 2012 2:59 pm

I would like to know how many doctors themselves undergo chemo when they have seen the effects.
User avatar
juju7
Banned Sockpuppet
 
Posts: 905

Country: South Africa
South Africa (za)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#44  Postby Shrunk » Jun 17, 2012 6:08 pm

juju7 wrote:I would like to know how many doctors themselves undergo chemo when they have seen the effects.


I can't speak for all doctors, but for myself, at this point in my life, I would choose chemo if my prognosis was otherwise very poor and it gave me a significantly higher chance of long term survival or cure. 20 or 30 years from now, probably not.

I've yet to meet a single person who had a good outcome from chemo who regrets undergoing it, even as they acknowledge what a horrendous experience it was.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#45  Postby Macdoc » Jun 17, 2012 7:01 pm

Note that I do not know this for certain. However, bald assertions that cancers, or cancers of certain kinds can be treated with chemotherapy if caught early enough, strike me as a bit vapid. I don't know what evidence, if any, there are.


unreal wrong......

Leukemia has a very high survival rate in kids and outright cures....some do die of chemo tho.....

Why is the survival rate for leukaemia so high? Because it has had a lot of research thrown at it over the past decades and they have come to some hard conclusions – treat it heavily and treat it for a long time. Many cancer treatments can be a six to twelve month protocol, leukaemia protocols can go for as long as three years. And it is tough. When leukaemia is first diagnosed there is no mucking around, before you know it you will be on an oncology ward (sometimes the child is so sick they are admitted into an intensive care unit) and chemotherapy is started immediately. The idea with the first stage of leukaemia treatment is to induce remission in the child. Once remission is reached the child can move onto the next stage of treatment.

How does the leukaemia protocol work? I was going to type out a more simplified version of a leukaemia treatment protocol but in all honesty there is no way to simplify it. It is a very complicated treatment regime. There are many lumber punctures, injecting drugs into the spinal fluid (intrathecal treatment), and a whole list of chemotherapy drugs like methotrexate, vincristine, aspariginase, cyclophosphamide, thioguanine, doxorubicin, mercaptopurine, dexamethasone, prendnisone and many more. For those wanting more information the following link will show you how complex the treatment protocol is http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/ ... onal/page5

In order to ensure the leukaemia does not return the treatment protocol continues for two to three (very long) years, unfortunately it is usually longer in boys.

Sadly this treatment protocol can be deadly for the child. Some do not survive. They catch one or more infections that their bodies cannot fight. A common cold can be deadly. There is also the risk of toxicity, some children cannot handle that many different drugs in their system and their body reacts accordingly.

How good does all of that sound? It does not sound good at all. I think it sounds just as bad as all the other cancer treatment protocols. I think next time you hear this rumour you should quash it. All childhood cancer is bad, even if the odds appear good.


and in adults for the type of cancer I had the survival rate is very good....part of the problem is the new treatments are much better but the stats are not caught up..

Prognosis

Survival rates for NHL vary widely, depending on the lymphoma type, stage, age of the patient, and other variables. According to the American Cancer Society, the overall 5-year relative survival rate for patients with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma is 63% and the 10-year relative survival rate is 51%. (The relative survival rate estimates the likelihood that a patient will survive a certain number years after diagnosis. It is calculated to exclude the likelihood of death from diseases other than the cancer.)


http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides ... nosis.html

There are literally hundreds of different cancers and each has stages.....caught early most cancers can be dealt with - left alone in most cases you will die - tho sometimes not for years.

The related form to mine has an even higher rate....

Hodgkin's lymphoma may be treated with radiation therapy, chemotherapy, or hematopoietic stem cell transplantation, with the choice of treatment depending on the age and sex of the patient and the stage, bulk, and histological subtype of the disease. The disease occurrence shows two peaks: the first in young adulthood (age 15–35) and the second in those over 55 years old.[3]

The overall 5-year relative survival for 2001-2007 from 17 SEER geographic areas was 83.9%.


For skin cancers the survival rate is very high as well.

HOW EFFECTIVE IS TOPICAL CHEMOTHERAPY?

Topical chemotherapy response can be unpredicatable, especially with imiquimod. In some cases no response would occur - no skin reaction and no cancer eradication. Even with skin reaction, cure is not guaranteed. Careful follow-up with the physician and occasionally biopsies are needed after completion of topical chemotherapy. Overall, for properly selected skin cancers, the cure rate can be 80-90%.


Bladder cancer

In a new study splitting 360 patients into groups receiving radiation alone or radiation plus chemotherapy, British researchers found that those undergoing combined therapies had a 67 percent rate of local disease-free survival after two years, compared with 54 percent in the radiation group. Five-year overall survival rates were 48 percent in the chemo-radiation group, compared with 35 percent in the radiation-only group.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-04-c ... ancer.html

Each is different, each patient is different..stop spreading unfounded and unsupported crap.

Chemo therapy is complex and the variety of treatments and effectiveness is moving forward rapidly.

What would kill two decades ago most often will now most often be cured.

Some types of cancer tho are a death sentence in nearly all cases tho that may take years to unfold.

Chemo is one tool in a wide arsenal and cancer is not one thing - it has many many forms.

If you feel a lump in your groin and avoid chemo and listen to the idjits on the web you will die and be up for a Darwin award. It's really quite simple.

Steve Jobs had a quite easily cured cancer.....he waited and tried the stupid stuff.....then it was too late and he died a miserable death ....completely unnecessary but of his own doing.

Some patients will die of chemo for a variety of reasons.....it's rare.....the cancers being treated would however kill them in due course.

I suggest very strongly if there is a history of cancer in your family you keep checked and at certain ages you do the early detection checks appropriate.
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 17156
Age: 73
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#46  Postby Shrunk » Jun 17, 2012 7:34 pm

Macdoc wrote:Steve Jobs had a quite easily cured cancer.....he waited and tried the stupid stuff.....then it was too late and he died a miserable death ....completely unnecessary but of his own doing.


Not to dismiss the rest of your post, which I mainly agree with it, but this seems to be a common misconception with little evidence to support it:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... teve-jobs/
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#47  Postby Macdoc » Jun 17, 2012 7:45 pm

I stand corrected

Once it was clear that Jobs had the rare islet-cell pancreatic cancer, there was an excellent chance of a cure. According to Cleveland Clinic gastroenterologist Maged Rizk, MD, there’s an overall 80% to 90% chance of 5-year survival. In the world of cancer survival, that’s a huge milestone.
“I don’t think waiting nine months for surgery was a bad decision,” Rizk tells WebMD. “Especially if it is limited disease, especially if it is an islet-cell tumor and the cells are [typical of early cancer], and as long as you don’t have symptoms, you can sit on it a bit.”
So why wasn’t Jobs cured? “He was unlucky,” Rizk says.
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 17156
Age: 73
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#48  Postby Dogmatic Pyrrhonist » Jun 18, 2012 3:29 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Every cancer is different...


Actually, to take that further, if the cancer is more than a few weeks old, it's pretty likely that bits of it a genetically diverse from other bits of itself.

There's no single cure for cancer any more than there's a single cure for microbe. And it's daft to think there will be.
Dogmatic Pyrrhonist
AKA https://plus.google.com/u/0/105518842266362138077/about (google has decided my name isn't a 'real' name)

Image
User avatar
Dogmatic Pyrrhonist
 
Posts: 712
Age: 48
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#49  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 13, 2012 9:27 am

juju7 wrote:I would like to know how many doctors themselves undergo chemo when they have seen the effects.



Presumably, they'd use their knowledge to consider their chances with and without. If chemotherapy provided a better chance at extending their life and quality of life, they'd opt for that.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27417
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#50  Postby SpeedOfSound » Nov 04, 2013 12:20 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Chemotherapy is horse medicine.

My late girl friend who died in 2002 had cell cancer. She had chemotherapy twice it did not help in fact it made her condition worse. In the end she wanted euthonasia which she was given.

I would like to see hard data for the 10% chance of living for 5 years. I dont believe it.

The choice is not simple. Six months of quality life of five years of hell. I know what I would choose.
Chemotherapy ruins the body and has so many side effects and should only be used when there is a sizable chance of a cure.

The Dutch doctors association have started a discussion regarding the cost of maintaining the life of some one in their last phase of life and the cost and time involved.


My brother-in-law is dying right now of lung cancer and it seems like he is dying of the chemo too. His life sure as hell sucks with the chemo.

I am wondering what it would have been like if he hadn't done the two different types of chemo he has done. If either of these slowed the cancer even a little than jesus fucking christ, this cancer has super powers! It's growing like crazy with the treatments.

It's really hard to know what to do. But consider you are a bit of a gambler at heart, as I think we all are. You can either play the slots or accept that you absolutely will not win anything at all. In this case the big win is a longer life. A nice idea. But the cost of the slots is drastic weight loss, sunken eyes, lack of sleep, nausea, vomiting, etc. Plus in the end he gets to choke to death on his own blood and lungs. Choking to death PLUS the nausea?

We don't know what the fuck to do.
User avatar
SpeedOfSound
RS Donator
 
Posts: 32084
Age: 69
Male

Kyrgyzstan (kg)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#51  Postby Aern Rakesh » Nov 04, 2013 4:55 pm

This is a really hard one. Because for everyone who has a story about a friend/relative who had chemo and died anyway, there are those of us who know someone who probably wouldn't still be here if it weren't for the chemo.

Certainly I have a friend who is a 10 year survivor from chemo+op for ovarian cancer that had spread all over her abdomen. The chemo is undoubtedly responsible for damage to her hips that resulted in two hip replacements at age 50. However she is undeniably alive. When she was first diagnosed, she was given a 25% chance of surviving two years. Once she survived five, she was basically discharged from active care, only has to have a blood test for the cancer marker every year.

My b-i-l had to have chemo for a rectal cancer. The initial chemo shrank the tumour to the point where it was operable, and following removal of the mass he was given further, more extreme chemo, to mop up any residual cancer. Of course time will tell with him, but without the initial chemo they wouldn't have been able to operate at all.

When I was diagnosed with breast cancer I was incredibly lucky that they caught it before it had spread to the nodes. So all I had after my operation was a month's radiotherapy, followed by five years of tamoxifen. Every day I went in for radiotherapy I counted myself lucky that I was there through my own steam (I took the tube to the hospital), and wasn't one of those wheeled down from the cancer ward who was getting chemo as well.
Image
User avatar
Aern Rakesh
RS Donator
 
Posts: 13582
Age: 71
Female

Country: UK (London)
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#52  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Nov 05, 2013 9:45 pm

If you're using chemo to stick around longer than you otherwise would, knowing it will not change the outcome, I see no value in continuing if that extension on your life has no quality. If I had any quality of life though, even knowing I was just postponing my death, hell yeah I'd do it. I want to stick around as long as I have quality of life.
what a terrible image
User avatar
Rachel Bronwyn
 
Name: speaking moistly
Posts: 13384
Age: 32
Female

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#53  Postby Macdoc » Nov 05, 2013 10:12 pm

My brother-in-law is dying right now of lung cancer and it seems like he is dying of the chemo too. His life sure as hell sucks with the chemo.


Wonder what some people are smoking here…
Chemo is annoying …it doesn't kill you….cancer kills you.

Aggressive cancers actually are easier to cure than slow indolent types.
Cancer causes the quality of life issues….not the chemo.

If you are uncertain go to the onco appointments with your brother-in-law and also sign up into this forum
http://www.cancerforums.net/forums/16-L ... homa-Forum

to the appropriate type of cancer. You'll get support and knowledge…not old wives tales.
I'm cancer free after 5 years and generally 60% of those with my type of lymphoma will be cured.

I might die of cancer…..50% of men will get it sometime in their life…..but it won't be what I had. It's gone…
I love people commenting when they don't know what the fuck they are talking about. :nono:

Image

Report to the Nation shows U.S. cancer death rates continue to drop; Special feature highlights trends in HPV-associated cancers and HPV vaccination coverage levels
The Annual Report to the Nation on the Status of Cancer, 1975–2009, shows that overall cancer death rates continued to decline in the United States among both men and women, among all major racial and ethnic groups, and for all of the most common cancer sites, including lung, colon and rectum, female breast, and prostate. However, the report also shows that death rates continued to increase during the latest time period (2000 through 2009) for melanoma of the skin (among men only) and for cancers of the liver, pancreas, and uterus. The special feature section on human papillomavirus (HPV)-associated cancers shows that incidence rates are increasing for HPV-associated oropharyngeal and anal cancers and that vaccination coverage levels in the U.S. during 2008 and 2010 remained low among adolescent girls.


http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/newsfr ... portNation

Prevention for preteens and teens for HPV is an absolute must…..just do it and make noise about it in schools etc.

Do not go lightly……:coffee:
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 17156
Age: 73
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#54  Postby SpeedOfSound » Nov 05, 2013 10:19 pm

It's not saving his life because his life can't be saved. It is most certainly making him increasingly sicker. If that isn't the case then it is one hell of a coincidence that he starts feeling better in the lull between different series of treatments.

It may be increasing the length of his life but it can't be by much. The shit is still growing like hell and spreading everywhere.

The question is, for terminal patients, is it worth it to get a few extra days maybe and be throwing up the whole time.

Now I said 'it SEEMS like he is dying of'. An emotional statement where dying means deathly sick. I hope you didn't read that as the chemo is killing him not the cancer but it SEEMS like you did.
User avatar
SpeedOfSound
RS Donator
 
Posts: 32084
Age: 69
Male

Kyrgyzstan (kg)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#55  Postby Macdoc » Nov 05, 2013 10:33 pm

It's not saving his life because his life can't be saved.


and that statement is coming from who??

Aggressive cancers can succumb suddenly….yes the chemo is uncomfortable…no it's not killing him.
If he has given up then he should talk to his onco but depression is a major health risk in cancer and leads to noncompliance with treatments.

Let him or you or both talk to others with similar conditions and treatment protocols. THEN make some decisions.

You don't know what to do ……yup….find out what others in the same position have done.
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 17156
Age: 73
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#56  Postby SpeedOfSound » Nov 05, 2013 11:18 pm

Macdoc wrote:
It's not saving his life because his life can't be saved.


and that statement is coming from who??
...

his doctor

…no it's not killing him.


and I didn't actually say that it was.

You don't know what to do ……yup….find out what others in the same position have done.


Like his wife who died two years ago of the same thing. What they do is they die. Stage four lung cancer kills you.
User avatar
SpeedOfSound
RS Donator
 
Posts: 32084
Age: 69
Male

Kyrgyzstan (kg)
Print view this post


Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#58  Postby renekawa » Nov 13, 2013 5:33 pm

wtargentina wrote:But eating raw foods can cure cancer...

http://www.naturalnews.com/042848_organic_produce_cancer_cure_sick_car_industry.html

DON'T!!! Just don't go there... Don't spout that untested pseudoscientific bullshit. Because some of the cancer patients might just believe you and miss the real treatment.
renekawa
 
Posts: 57
Male

Estonia (ee)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#59  Postby wtargentina » Nov 14, 2013 10:18 am

renekawa wrote:

DON'T!!! Just don't go there... Don't spout that untested pseudoscientific bullshit. Because some of the cancer patients might just believe you and miss the real treatment.



Sorry - still don't know how to find the sarcasm font.

Just some pish that a facebook "friend" posted on my wall. I'm sure she didn't realise that my father died from cancer 18 months ago, after having had 2 pretty good years on chemo. He'd have had a few months at best without it, and we'd have missed fantastic times with him in various exotic locations . I hate the people who spout this crap more than you could possibly think.
wtargentina
 
Posts: 711

Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Re: Most Cancer Patients Die of Chemotherapy

#60  Postby renekawa » Nov 16, 2013 7:55 am

Sorry for my earlier rant. My mother succumbed to ovarian cancer early this year and apparently I'm quite touchy on this subject. Peace!
renekawa
 
Posts: 57
Male

Estonia (ee)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Pseudoscience

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest