My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#41  Postby tolman » Sep 01, 2013 8:42 pm

One can't help wondering what kind of aliens would think the thing the Egyptians needed most in the world was a huge pile of stones.

Also, you show me an ancient Egyptian who believes that the Sun god Ra has to take a perilous journey every night through the Duat to be reborn at dawn, and I'll show you an ancient Egyptian who hasn't taken a ride in an alien spaceship.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#42  Postby Oldskeptic » Sep 01, 2013 9:43 pm

paulbargate wrote:I have watched LLoyd Pyes "all u no is wrong" and to be honest he has echoed all I have thought myself for a long long time,


Have you simply thought it or actually put in some study time and come to rational conclusions? Conclusions based on facts backed up by evidence and not just assertions of "facts" made by people like Pyes.

we have not evolved from ape`s [naturally].


Who, besides creationists, said that modern humans evolved from apes? We are apes. Descended from the same ape ancestors as all other apes that have ever existed.

Infact if u read any Darwin`s theory on evolution it takes millions of years to evolve only slightly and in our current form we have only been around some 30.000 years or so.


Modern humans have been around for at least 200,000 years, and it took millions of years to get there from the first apes.

We alone seem to have made a quantum leap forward, yet were all prone to the forces of evollution on this plannet, but chimps havn`t been to the moon yet, or any other animal on this plannet for that matter, and there not showing any signs there going any time soon.


This "quantum leap" that you speak of has been in knowledge and technology, not in any physical evolution. Chimpanzees are not going to the moon on their own because their ancestors went down a different evolutionary path.

We are definately the odd one`s out on plannet earth,


In some ways yes in other ways no. If you looked closely enough every species would be the odd one in some way or another. We can't shoot flames out of our ass like some beetles do or survive in subfreezing water like some fish.

so I think its reasonable to wunder why this is,


It may be reasonable to wonder, but coming up with aliens as the answer is not.

the Universe is enormass so there is plenty of scope for alternatives. look at our progress in the last 100 years and imagine a race 1000 years ahead or even a million years ahead.


What are you saying? That given the possibilities it is possible that there are aliens advanced enough to guide and speed up evolution? Well you're are right in that given enough technical advancement it is possible. The problem comes when there is no valid evidence for this.

As for the Pyramids no one no`s one things clear to me it takes more than logs,timber A- frames and copper chisels to build them havn`t seen any of the above being used in the costruction of the patronas towers for example lol


Did you miss my post directly above your first post?
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#43  Postby Oldskeptic » Sep 01, 2013 10:46 pm

paulbargate wrote:I think Pye is very intellegent and I think along the lines he projects.


Many people that go down these lines are very intelligent. It does mean that they are right, only that they have convinced themselves that they are right. I would suggest that you read Michael Shermer's Why Smart People Believe Weird Things.

I can`t believe for one minite they were built by copper chisels timber A frame levers and lots and lots of men.


Why not? The Egyptians had basically the same tools and knowledge of engineering as the later Greek, Roman, and the medieval builders of monumental structures such as the Parthenon, the Colosseum, or the great cathedrals of Europe. I don't hear anyone claiming that they were built built by aliens.

If thats the best Haswas or what ever they call the Egyptian caretaker who all but claims he built them his self with ropes and logs lol its time to give up.
I think the ancient Egyptians inherited them and did drawings of how they thought they were made/built there isn`t even an agreed time that they were actually built it ranges from 4500 to 9000 years ago so lets face were all clueless.


See, this is where facts get in the way of assertions. The first mud brick flat topped pyramids were built in the 3rd millenium BC. The more advanced designed came later.

but I am a builder not on that scale but even on small builds there are skips filled with rubble etc can u imagine how much rubble there woukd be on that building site.


Well, unless someone carried off to build smaller tombs or other structures. Do you leave your debris at the construction site?

They also say they were built in the time the king lived start to finish which is approx` 30 years which turns out that they would have to lay 2000 blocks a day 24 hrs to achieve this and cosidering each block s average weight is 2 tons mmm cant lay 2000 bricks in a day who`s kidding who ????


Actually at Giza, biggest pyramid, over twenty years it would be 288 blocks per day. A far cry from 2000 per day. So who is kidding who? I think it is those that make up their own facts and/or those that don't bother checking their facts. By your numbers the Great Pyramid at Giza would contain 21,900,000 blocks, but it only contains 2,300,000. Your pyramid contains almost 10 times as many blocks as the actual pyramid does.

Do you care to address this error in you argument?
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#44  Postby paulbargate » Sep 02, 2013 3:37 pm

Apologies. I meant 200 Blocks a day. still you will agree 200 + blocks average 2 ton with excellent accuracy no easy task, and this is after they have have cut them with there copper hand tools and dragged them on barges down the Nile from some quarry miles away. built up huge sand ramps etc etc, oh and don`t forget the odd tea break.
Joking aside I find it difficult to believe, and there is no concrete proof when and how they were built the time varies from 4500 to 9000 years the sphinx has been dated by geologists at 9000+ years old but the Egyptian `s will have none of it they say 4500 years so who`s right?
And the Japanese did attempt to build one using "cranes etc" and gave up.
Do keep the it coming I enjoy a good banter
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#45  Postby paulbargate » Sep 02, 2013 3:42 pm

P.S I`m not saying Aliens built them and I`m not saying they didn`t, no one really knows for sure, but you have to look at all sides off opinion and evidence after all the world was flat 100`s off years ago or that was mainstream belief.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#46  Postby paulbargate » Sep 02, 2013 3:45 pm

Just my opinion for what its worth.
Evolution is obvious, I think, which bit did u not understand? Lloyd Pye suggests we have a missing link between modern man and the ape/etc why is that? Darwin suggests we all evolved from one thing to another over time, [as in millions off years] affected by our surroundings and enviroment, small changes etc, only modern man has not been here for millions off years. So I believe alternative thinkers such as Pye are looking for other explanations which I think are possible, [we have cloned sheep our selves] But I am a listener and if anyone can explain to me what really happened feel free I would like to here.
Also in reply to show me just one thing we cant do today with 5k old technology, is that a serious question ?? can you tell me what you consider 5k technology and knowledge to be, I will pass this imfo on to Ferrari`s race engine development team it may help them beat Redbull.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#47  Postby paulbargate » Sep 02, 2013 3:47 pm

Am I to take it no one believes in the existance of ET`s
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#48  Postby paulbargate » Sep 02, 2013 3:50 pm

Post 46 was in response to my pal mr weaver
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#49  Postby trubble76 » Sep 02, 2013 3:52 pm

paulbargate wrote:Am I to take it no one believes in the existance of ET`s


I personally feel there must be inhabitants of other worlds, based on sheer numbers. To go from this to "and therefore the pyramids were built by aliens" would need some really good evidence. "I can't see how they could do it" does not count as really good evidence, it doesn't even count as bad evidence.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#50  Postby tolman » Sep 02, 2013 5:55 pm

paulbargate wrote: Lloyd Pye suggests we have a missing link between modern man and the ape/etc why is that? Darwin suggests we all evolved from one thing to another over time, [as in millions off years] affected by our surroundings and enviroment, small changes etc, only modern man has not been here for millions off years. So I believe alternative thinkers such as Pye are looking for other explanations which I think are possible, [we have cloned sheep our selves] But I am a listener and if anyone can explain to me what really happened feel free I would like to here.

In the sense of an incomplete fossil record, there are all kinds of 'missing links' in the last 5 million years of human evolution.

In fact, pretty much every time some more evidence is found in a current gap, that doesn't remove a missing link, it creates an extra one - that's the way missing links work when data is sparse, (and why creationists like them so much).

It's a bit like someone asking you to account for your movements between 1st June and 31st August last year.
If you could fill in what you were doing on those two end dates, you'd have a story with a gap in it.
If you then remember (or find some evidence) regarding where you were at some intermediate time, that doesn't fill the gap, it means there are now two gaps.
Unless you manage to find evidence to cover all of a particular gap, the more information you have, the more gaps there are.

As for evolution taking millions of years, it's a process which will *tend* to take more time for larger changes to genetic material, but there are various confounding processes.

One such process is that the 'selective pressure' (or, if you like the potential gain in 'fitness') related to some particular change can vary wildly depending on how well fitted some aspect of an organism is for its environment (with the environment including other organisms.
The 'speed of evolution' is not some fixed thing.

Another process is that in a complex organism, some significant changes to the appearance of the organism can come from small changes to the genetic code.
In humans, for example, it seems the case that in many ways we seem to be somewhat like oversized juvenile versions of other apes, something that could potentially happen as a result of relatively small changes to genes controlling general development rates.
Likewise when it comes to domesticated animals, many of them seem like scaled-up versions of juvenile examples of their wild ancestor species, with a whole suite of connected behavioural and appearance changes which could again be caused by quite small changes to the actual genetic information.
Apparent significant changes may happen quickly if they don't require large changes to the genome.
Last edited by tolman on Sep 02, 2013 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#51  Postby tolman » Sep 02, 2013 6:16 pm

As for alien pyramid builders, it does seem odd that some aliens with technology which would have to have been vastly in advance of contemporary technology are supposed to have helped the Egyptians build things which, even according to people who think Egyptians needed alien help, are not radically harder than things the Egyptians could have done.

An aluminium obelisk 100m tall would have been rather better evidence.

And obviously, if aliens had landed in Egypt and had supposedly helped people make 'impossible' pyramids, by definition they can't have been wary of leaving evidence.

Heck, even aliens who had emergency-landed with (by their standards) woefully primitive equipment would, assuming they had any reference material or much personal general knowledge have had immensely useful information they could have given to the Egyptians without the need for *any* accompanying technology.
Iron, for example, which is possible with basic (ie Iron Age) technology.
Wide knowledge of chemistry, mineralogy, and general metallurgy (including which ores to extract materials from for good steelmaking).

Specific tech might be trickier - for example aliens might never have made things like steam engines, but chemistry is pretty universal, and iron happens to be something which is likely to be widespread on many/most places which aliens are likely to visit

As it is, there really doesn't seem to have been any significant (let alone massive) technological leap forwards by the Egyptians, either recorded by them (or anyone else) or leaving any archaeological evidence.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#52  Postby tolman » Sep 02, 2013 6:19 pm

paulbargate wrote:P.S I`m not saying Aliens built them and I`m not saying they didn`t, no one really knows for sure, but you have to look at all sides off opinion and evidence after all the world was flat 100`s off years ago or that was mainstream belief.

For practical purposes for most people it didn't much matter whether they thought the Earth was flat or not.

That said, among people who actually cared, there doesn't appear to have been radical outcry around 250 BCE regarding Erastosthenes' invention of the armillary sphere, or his calculations of the size of the spherical Earth.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#53  Postby tolman » Sep 02, 2013 6:49 pm

paulbargate wrote:Apologies. I meant 200 Blocks a day. still you will agree 200 + blocks average 2 ton with excellent accuracy no easy task, and this is after they have have cut them with there copper hand tools and dragged them on barges down the Nile from some quarry miles away. built up huge sand ramps etc etc, oh and don`t forget the odd tea break.

Who was saying it was an easy task?
However, you have to admit that there were pretty massive incentives for people to work out the most efficient way of doing things, and a relatively long time (over all the previous constructions) for them to have developed skills, and for ideas/skills to have been imported from outside Egypt rather than necessarily home-grown.

You would expect that in a society with a tradition of monumental building, they would not simply be muddling along, but would be essentially at the cutting edge of what was possible with the available technology, unless there were possibilities their technology had but which it is somehow clear (how?) that no-one around in those days could have imagined.
It was a large and organised society, and one not run by fools, and it would have had, at any time, a damn good idea of what was and wasn't feasible, with limited expectation of sudden radical improvements in capability.

If somehow moving/lifting 200 blocks/day was clearly not feasible but say 50/day wasn't, I'd have thought that it wouldn't be impossible to tell Khufu that a 146m high pyramid needed resources that were apparently unavailable but one 92m high was four times easier while still looking pretty damn impressive and (assuming they believed previous pyramids had 'worked') being perfectly functional.
If they wanted a pyramid built in their expected lifetime (which presumably they generally did, given the supposed function of it) I suspect that a Pharaoh who trusted technicians who were trying to please him and who based their calculations on extensive historic experience would tend towards the possible rather than the seemingly impossible.

People can be pushed somewhat in the short term. They can't really be pushed far beyond their limits for decades.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#54  Postby Oldskeptic » Sep 02, 2013 10:46 pm

paulbargate wrote:Apologies. I meant 200 Blocks a day.


Well, of course you did now that you have been caught out in your exaggeration.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#55  Postby paulbargate » Sep 03, 2013 5:35 pm

Totally agree with Mr weaver
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#56  Postby tolman » Sep 03, 2013 5:44 pm

paulbargate wrote:Totally agree with Mr weaver

About what?

About all the nothing at all he's written since the last post you made?
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#57  Postby paulbargate » Sep 03, 2013 6:15 pm

Well I`ve listened to all you have [all posts] to say with great interest, but no one has convinced me to think any different. I don`t know how they were built and neither does any one on this site we can only speculate, which is frustrating but never the less thats all we can do.
As for motivating 1000 `s of men to build such structures that I would like to see they must certainly be very different to people today, getting a days work out off people today can be some what trying.
So saying just because we have not built a Pyramid today doesn`t mean we can`t I disagree, but please feel free to prove me wrong after all it only takes lots of people logs a few hand tools, lot off rope and jobs a goodun.
I`m` 53 so I`m in good shape [work out and eat well] so I might just have 30 years left in me to see it finished were upon I will bow down an pay homage.
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Re: AW: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#58  Postby Scar » Sep 03, 2013 6:28 pm

paulbargate wrote:Well I`ve listened to all you have [all posts] to say with great interest, but no one has convinced me to think any different. I don`t know how they were built and neither does any one on this site we can only speculate, which is frustrating but never the less thats all we can do.
As for motivating 1000 `s of men to build such structures that I would like to see they must certainly be very different to people today, getting a days work out off people today can be some what trying.
So saying just because we have not built a Pyramid today doesn`t mean we can`t I disagree, but please feel free to prove me wrong after all it only takes lots of people logs a few hand tools, lot off rope and jobs a goodun.
I`m` 53 so I`m in good shape [work out and eat well] so I might just have 30 years left in me to see it finished were upon I will bow down an pay homage.

Can someone translate this?
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#59  Postby Weaver » Sep 03, 2013 6:32 pm

I'm lost.

First he says evolution couldn't have happened in the time scale it did. Then he challenges me and says he supported evolution all along. Now he says he agrees with me - when I haven't yet replied to his intermediate challenge.

He says pyramids couldn't be been built by men, then he says they could have been, and challenges anyone who disagrees with him to prove him wrong.

This is either the most disjointed, incompetent debate style we've ever seen, or it's someone with unclear communications for a variety of reasons (language, lack of practice, something) - or it's really bad trolling.

I have no idea which - or if there's another option entirely.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#60  Postby BlackBart » Sep 03, 2013 6:47 pm

paulbargate wrote:Well I`ve listened to all you have [all posts] to say with great interest, but no one has convinced me to think any different.


It's not up to us to make you think any different. If you have a claim, its up to you to support it. We don't have to disprove them Google 'burden of proof'.


I don`t know how they were built and neither does any one on this site we can only speculate, which is frustrating but never the less thats all we can do.


Then all you can say you don't know how they were built. Invoking aliens to assuage your incredulity is worthless. We have no evidence of aliens visiting Earth - we do however have evidence of Egyptians - Google 'Ockham's Razor'



As for motivating 1000 `s of men to build such structures that I would like to see they must certainly be very different to people today, getting a days work out off people today can be some what trying.


What? :what:

So saying just because we have not built a Pyramid today doesn`t mean we can`t I disagree, but please feel free to prove me wrong after all it only takes lots of people logs a few hand tools, lot off rope and jobs a goodun.


Your incredulity is evidence of nothing. Once again; Burden of proof - if you want to claim little space friends built the Pyramids, put up some robust evidence.


I`m` 53 so I`m in good shape [work out and eat well] so I might just have 30 years left in me to see it finished were upon I will bow down an pay homage.


You'll have a long wait. I doubt anyone round here feels the need to do your homework for you.
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