My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#21  Postby Penser » Nov 06, 2012 9:05 pm

I see where your coming from!

Just to clarify so at least we are on the same page, whilst I agree completely with you that we have built buildings taller, etc than the pyramids, the structures you mention are primarily concrete structures where casts are filled with liquid concrete until it sets which in turn forms large 'stones'. I refer to the moving (and placement) of individual stones weighing up to 2,000 tons. Bare in mind that we are only able to lift approx. 1300 tons today (non-fixed crane). (Please visit http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/top50stones.htm)

Additionally, what we are able to acheive today is (I feel) irrelevant. We are talking about structures built about 5,000 years ago. Not quite the same thing I feel.

And why would you suggest that knowledge of this fact would require me to have personally (and on my own?!) built such a structure, that just seems odd.

a) I didn't write 'on your own' (you could have a million qualified masons working with you and it would not make an iota of difference)
b) The fact remains that 'we' are unable to recreate the likes of the great pyramids in this day and age.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#22  Postby Weaver » Nov 06, 2012 9:12 pm

Penser wrote:What is your point Thommo?

You have quoted a fact so I can only assume you agree with me. We are unable to build a pyramid (for example) of the same magnitude as those found in the valley of the kings, Egypt with our current technologies and tools available to us. Unless of course you have managed to do it?

What makes you think we are unable to build a pyramid using current technologies and tools?

Just because we haven't doesn't mean we cannot. It would be much easier, in many ways, to design and build than many modern skyscrapers.

Of course, pyramids have absolutely no utility in the modern world - so there's no incentive to build one. But that doesn't make them impossible, or even challenging.

Now yes, it would be a challenge to build using the tools and techniques available to the ancient Egyptians. We don't have the same utility in those skills - they've been forgotten, because they're useless in the modern world. But that doesn't mean we couldn't relearn them and build the pyramids as the ancients built them either - all it means is that we haven't, again because there's no reason to.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#23  Postby Penser » Nov 06, 2012 9:26 pm

Weaver,

Additionally, what we are able to acheive today is (I feel) irrelevant. We are talking about structures built about 5,000 years ago. Not quite the same thing I feel.


I thought by my comment (above), it would be assumed that by talking of structures built in ancient times, it would also be assumed that they would have been built with the tools available during those times, i.e, not a great deal. The FACT still remains that TODAY we are unable to create such structures of the precision and magnitude used in the great pyramids IF using the technologies and tools available 5,000 years ago.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#24  Postby Weaver » Nov 06, 2012 9:30 pm

Nonsense.

Again, just because we haven't doesn't mean we cannot.

Water leveling and precise stone fitting (still demonstrated in numerous places around the world) are not beyond our reach - nor were they beyond the reach of the ancients.

Show one thing that cannot be done now using tools and tech available 5K years ago. Just one.

EDIT - just saw your thing about cranes.

Again - just because we don't doesn't mean we cannot. There are very good safety reasons why fixed cranes are used for the high-mass objects - it's hard to find insurance for the sort of injuries likely with a huge construction project as a pyramid without modern safety devices and techniques. But that doesn't mean we cannot - just that we're not dumb enough to risk killing people to prove pseudoscientists wrong.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#25  Postby Penser » Nov 06, 2012 9:44 pm

The great pyramids! That's 3 examples for you.

Now you find me anyone who has successfully explained how the pyramids were built based upon what was available in those ancient times.

Oh! and you might find the following interesting (or not) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4cItoDIHdQ

It seems like we are straying off the main road and the point remains that I still cannot read where Mr Lloyd Pye (the subject of this thread) has written anything that he has not substanciated by means of explination, proof, or at the very least, the fact he just can't explain but neither can anyone else. He questions what all our mainstream schooling has taught us (and continues to teach us) and I can't help but feel he has some very valid points. I could state that he is just talking twaddle, but he seems like a very educated intelligent man and for that reason alone, I will listen to what he has to say.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#26  Postby Paul » Nov 06, 2012 9:56 pm

People who actually study archaeology, and in particular Egyptologists like Mark Lehner and experimental archaeologists like Denys Stocks have no problem with the idea that the ancient Egyptians built the pyramids without 'external assistance', even if they don't have all of the answers for how it was done. Their works shows what could have been done, and still could be done today, given the desire and the resources. They demonstrate what is possible.

To suggest that humans couldn't "recreate such structures today using the best people and equipment we have" is not a conclusion based on facts and experiment, it is an opinion. Precisely how does Lloyd Pye back up this opinion? How does he demonstrate that something is impossible?
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#27  Postby Thommo » Nov 06, 2012 10:10 pm

Penser wrote:I refer to the moving (and placement) of individual stones weighing up to 2,000 tons. Bare in mind that we are only able to lift approx. 1300 tons today (non-fixed crane).


But we also have fixed cranes, which can lift far, far in excess of those kinds of weights - even crawler cranes can lift substantially more than this. It's also possible to raise a stone block without lifting its entire weight, so without a shadow of doubt this can in fact be done today.

Penser wrote:Additionally, what we are able to acheive today is (I feel) irrelevant. We are talking about structures built about 5,000 years ago. Not quite the same thing I feel.


It's relevant to whether you're giving that OP a fair read, you said that everything Lloyd Pye said was not opinion, but fact. Well, that's not the case, as can easily be seen by only the second sentence he wrote in the exchange.

Penser wrote:b) The fact remains that 'we' are unable to recreate the likes of the great pyramids in this day and age.


All around the world are buildings that require greater engineering, mass of materials, transportation of materials from further away and so on. It is so unimaginably far from being some observable fact that modern humans cannot recreate large stone structures that I am baffled you even defend it. Just upthread is a video of a guy manipulating multi-tonne blocks on his own, without any machinery.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#28  Postby BlackBart » Nov 07, 2012 9:24 am

Penser wrote:
Just to clarify so at least we are on the same page, whilst I agree completely with you that we have built buildings taller, etc than the pyramids, the structures you mention are primarily concrete structures where casts are filled with liquid concrete until it sets which in turn forms large 'stones'. I refer to the moving (and placement) of individual stones weighing up to 2,000 tons. Bare in mind that we are only able to lift approx. 1300 tons today (non-fixed crane). (Please visit http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/top50stones.htm)


Where does it say on your link that the heaviest stone in the pyramids weighed up to 2000 tons? It specifically states the heaviest is only estimated to be around 400 tons - well within the weight range of the largest non-fixed cranes. The 2000 tons refers to the unfinished stone in the Lebanon and even that is stated by your reference page to be an over-estimate and it's closer to 1100 tons - again within the range of a non-fixed crane.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#29  Postby Calilasseia » Nov 07, 2012 10:40 am

Heh, you don't even need cranes to do the job. Just build a big ramp out of the surrounding soil, and push your blocks up that. Incrementally add to the ramp each time you complete another tier of blocks.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#30  Postby Rumraket » Nov 07, 2012 11:05 am

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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#31  Postby tolman » Nov 07, 2012 12:31 pm

Spearthrower wrote:And wow Kytescall... whoever it was that responded to you was seriously on the attack. It's agree with me or be damned.

Not to mention the rather odd combination of 'Anyone who knows anything about ancient structures think aliens made them' and 'My ideas are being suppressed by the might of the mainstream'.

Even ignoring the fact that the first statement is a simple, blatant and deliberate lie, why would 'the engineering mainstream' bother to suppress ideas which they could see were as obviously right as this guy wants to pretend his are?
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#32  Postby tolman » Nov 07, 2012 1:10 pm

Penser wrote:What is your point Thommo?

You have quoted a fact so I can only assume you agree with me. We are unable to build a pyramid (for example) of the same magnitude as those found in the valley of the kings, Egypt with our current technologies and tools available to us. Unless of course you have managed to do it?

What kind of idiot logic is 'haven't done it == can't do it'?

By that logic, humans are 'unable' to sexually assault cats on live BBC television, or fill an Olympic-sized swimming pool with rhubarb crumble.

Why the hell would anyone want to build another pyramid?
We already have some, and their main economic value comes from tourism due to their being old.

A new one would cost a fortune and consume meaningful resources while being worth relatively little when finished.

And precisely which of the 'pyramids in the Valley of the Kings' might you be thinking of, O Great Master of Facts and Research?
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#33  Postby Thommo » Nov 07, 2012 2:15 pm

tolman wrote:humans are 'unable' to sexually assault cats on live BBC television


Wouldn't that make a great signature? :lol:
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#34  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 09, 2012 11:20 am

Penser wrote:What is your point Thommo?

You have quoted a fact so I can only assume you agree with me. We are unable to build a pyramid (for example) of the same magnitude as those found in the valley of the kings, Egypt with our current technologies and tools available to us. Unless of course you have managed to do it?



Of course we can - that's a preposterous assertion to make. Look again at the buildings we routinely make. Not only are all the advanced materials a product of modern technology, but the structures are much more complicated and demanding than the pyramids.

Teams have actually reproduced moving the appropriately sized blocks about using ancient technology. Why would you think that we're incapable of moving around 50-100 tonne blocks today when we have equipment that can move blocks an order of magnitude heavier?
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#35  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 09, 2012 11:24 am

Penser wrote:I see where your coming from!

Just to clarify so at least we are on the same page, whilst I agree completely with you that we have built buildings taller, etc than the pyramids, the structures you mention are primarily concrete structures where casts are filled with liquid concrete until it sets which in turn forms large 'stones'. I refer to the moving (and placement) of individual stones weighing up to 2,000 tons. Bare in mind that we are only able to lift approx. 1300 tons today (non-fixed crane). (Please visit http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/top50stones.htm)

Additionally, what we are able to acheive today is (I feel) irrelevant. We are talking about structures built about 5,000 years ago. Not quite the same thing I feel.

And why would you suggest that knowledge of this fact would require me to have personally (and on my own?!) built such a structure, that just seems odd.

a) I didn't write 'on your own' (you could have a million qualified masons working with you and it would not make an iota of difference)
b) The fact remains that 'we' are unable to recreate the likes of the great pyramids in this day and age.



None of the blocks used in the Great Pyramid were 2000 tonnes. This is either a mistype, or another error in your source. Even the most massive blocks in the mastabas are only 200 tonnes. The average weight of a block used in pyramid construction is 2.5 tonnes - the very largest (unsurprisingly located at the bottom) weigh a maximum of 50 tonnes. Your source is giving you erroneous notions.

The fact remains that your 'fact' is not, in fact, a fact at all.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#36  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 09, 2012 11:25 am

Penser wrote:Weaver,

Additionally, what we are able to acheive today is (I feel) irrelevant. We are talking about structures built about 5,000 years ago. Not quite the same thing I feel.


I thought by my comment (above), it would be assumed that by talking of structures built in ancient times, it would also be assumed that they would have been built with the tools available during those times, i.e, not a great deal. The FACT still remains that TODAY we are unable to create such structures of the precision and magnitude used in the great pyramids IF using the technologies and tools available 5,000 years ago.



Why do you keep repeating a 'fact' that is not a fact at all?
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#37  Postby Oldskeptic » Nov 11, 2012 2:57 am

Penser wrote:The great pyramids! That's 3 examples for you.

Now you find me anyone who has successfully explained how the pyramids were built based upon what was available in those ancient times.


Some part of what was available were bronze tools including chisels and wedges. Also skilled craftsmen, intelligent engineers, and brute force. They also understood how a lever/fulcrum worked, how inclined planes worked, and how compound pulley systems worked.

Oh! and you might find the following interesting (or not) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4cItoDIHdQ


Nope. Been there done it before. The "ruins" are a geological site better explained by geology than advanced ancient civilizations such as Atlantis. You've got a few people that go with their first impressions and gut feelings, a few more that want it to be man made by an advanced ancient civilization for tourist dollars, but the only qualified geologist is extremely skeptical.

It seems like we are straying off the main road and the point remains that I still cannot read where Mr Lloyd Pye (the subject of this thread) has written anything that he has not substanciated by means of explination, proof,


Oh really! Doesn't Pye claim that 2000 ton stones make up the Kufu's great pyramid when the largest stone is 80 tons, and there is only one of them? Doesn't Pye claim that the builders only had wood and stone implements/tools to work with?

or at the very least, the fact he just can't explain but neither can anyone else.


Well, maybe Pye can't explain how it was done but there are a lot of people out there that can explain how it could be done.

He questions what all our mainstream schooling has taught us (and continues to teach us) and I can't help but feel he has some very valid points.


He lies to promote his books and lectures.

I could state that he is just talking twaddle, but he seems like a very educated intelligent man and for that reason alone, I will listen to what he has to say.


There's nothing wrong with listening. Just don't fall for his showmanship. When Pye says, "That's just stupid," in the hour long video that I watched he reminds me of Kent Hovind. There is nothing there except a show. It can't be called a lecture because there is no information imparted. It is all smoke and mirrors.
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#38  Postby paulbargate » Sep 01, 2013 3:25 pm

I have watched LLoyd Pyes "all u no is wrong" and to be honest he has echoed all I have thought myself for a long long time, we have not evolved from ape`s [naturally]. Infact if u read any Darwin`s theory on evolution it takes millions of years to evolve only slightly and in our current form we have only been around some 30.000 years or so.
We alone seem to have made a quantum leap forward, yet were all prone to the forces of evollution on this plannet, but chimps havn`t been to the moon yet, or any other animal on this plannet for that matter, and there not showing any signs there going any time soon.
We are definately the odd one`s out on plannet earth, so I think its reasonable to wunder why this is, the Universe is enormass so there is plenty of scope for alternatives. look at our progress in the last 100 years and imagine a race 1000 years ahead or even a million years ahead. As for the Pyramids no one no`s one things clear to me it takes more than logs,timber A- frames and copper chisels to build them havn`t seen any of the above being used in the costruction of the patronas towers for example lol
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#39  Postby paulbargate » Sep 01, 2013 7:21 pm

I think Pye is very intellegent and I think along the lines he projects. I can`t believe for one minite they were built by copper chisels timber A frame levers and lots and lots of men.
If thats the best Haswas or what ever they call the Egyptian caretaker who all but claims he built them his self with ropes and logs lol its time to give up.
I think the ancient Egyptians inherited them and did drawings of how they thought they were made/built there isn`t even an agreed time that they were actually built it ranges from 4500 to 9000 years ago so lets face were all clueless. but I am a builder not on that scale but even on small builds there are skips filled with rubble etc can u imagine how much rubble there woukd be on that building site.
They also say they were built in the time the king lived start to finish which is approx` 30 years which turns out that they would have to lay 2000 blocks a day 24 hrs to achieve this and cosidering each block s average weight is 2 tons mmm cant lay 2000 bricks in a day who`s kidding who ????
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Re: My exchange with Lloyd Pye (UFO/Big Foot conspiracy nut)

#40  Postby Weaver » Sep 01, 2013 8:07 pm

Argument from ignorance, argument from incredulity, and just plain don't know what you're talking about with regards to evolution.

Not even wrong.
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