Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

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Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#1  Postby KeenIdiot » Jan 22, 2017 6:45 am

I've been seeing Antivaxx stuff popping up again since the recent election, and while I used to have some handy resourges for debunking that was awhile ago.
I swear I remember studies comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated populations looking for health risks and autism, but my Google is only turning up nutters right now. Bit of help please?
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#2  Postby Thommo » Jan 22, 2017 6:59 am

Not really sure what you're looking for exactly. Google seems to be producing more stuff than I can shake a stick at.
(search term I used was "study comparing health indicators between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations")

Here's a smattering of pages, which in turn link to numerous studies, infographics and publications:-

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NE ... #t=article
https://thoughtscapism.com/2015/04/10/m ... ed-people/
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/ ... -children/
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 011.566203
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-pe ... ted-study/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/
https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/sc ... nated-kids

A couple of those links include images like:

Image
Image
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#3  Postby KeenIdiot » Jan 22, 2017 7:09 am

Thommo wrote:Not really sure what you're looking for exactly. Google seems to be producing more stuff than I can shake a stick at.
(search term I used was "study comparing health indicators between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations")

Here's a smattering of pages, which in turn link to numerous studies, infographics and publications:-

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NE ... #t=article
https://thoughtscapism.com/2015/04/10/m ... ed-people/
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/ ... -children/
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 011.566203
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-pe ... ted-study/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/
https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/sc ... nated-kids

A couple of those links include images like:

Image
Image


Sorry. I could swear I saw a couple of studies looking at children who had been vaccinated versus those who had not been vaccinated, looking for notable health issues.
The main one of course being autism.
I could swear I remember reading one comparing children who were vaccinated and not not vaccinated, but I wasn't getting any hits. Just loads and loads of McCarthy and Mike Adams.
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#4  Postby Thommo » Jan 22, 2017 7:11 am

Well, maybe there's something in there of help, there's quite a variety of stuff either directly or indirectly in those links, related to autism as well as other illnesses and general cognitive performance.
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#5  Postby KeenIdiot » Jan 22, 2017 7:16 am

I'm digging through it. I really should get some sleep (I just noticed my goof in the title) but this has me bugged.
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#6  Postby Pebble » Jan 22, 2017 7:26 am

This meta-anlaysis deals directly with issue:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24814559; full paper not immediately available.

However, contradictory data is still being gathered

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28031551 - the last one is open source, and the authors have a track record!


For placebo corrected data: again not so easy to access full paper

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12922131


Edited for completeness
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#7  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Jan 22, 2017 8:16 am

Even if they did cause autism, the sheer numbers of lives saved by vaccines would still far outweigh any risk of autism. Now apply the fact that there is no correlation between incidents of autism and vaccines. No brainer.
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#8  Postby Pebble » Jan 22, 2017 9:08 am

CdesignProponentsist wrote:Even if they did cause autism, the sheer numbers of lives saved by vaccines would still far outweigh any risk of autism. Now apply the fact that there is no correlation between incidents of autism and vaccines. No brainer.




Works beautifully on a population basis - that argument fails with the average person thinking only of their child - other people taking 'risks' with their children provides the herd immunity that their individual child benefits from without the vaccination risks.
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#9  Postby Papa Smurf » Jan 22, 2017 10:58 am

Pebble wrote:However, contradictory data is still being gathered

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28031551 - the last one is open source, and the authors have a track record


Some track record indeed:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Geier_family
raitionalwiki.org wrote:Mark Geier and David Geier are a bunch of vultures[1] father-son team of American anti-vaccine advocates who specialize in quack cures for autism.

The Geiers are perhaps best known for their truly bizarre theories regarding androgens and mercury. In 2004, Geier advanced a hypothesis that testosterone increases the potency of mercury.[2] This led the Geiers to invent and patent a therapy regimen of chelation and Lupron,[3] an anti-androgen. Lupron is normally only given to children who show signs of precocious puberty,[4] so what the Geiers suggested was way off-label.[5] Their solution? Declare that all the children in their studies had precocious puberty.[6]

This regimen is, to put it mildly, controversial among actual scientists in relevant fields.[7] Fortunately, as of 2009 they no longer have access to Lupron,[8] so no more chemically castrating kids for them.

As of early May, 2011, the Geiers' controversial "therapy" has been found to be a concern by the Maryland State Board of Physicians.[9] Fortunately, they have also decided that Mark Geier's therapies pose such a threat to children with autism that he was stripped of his medical license.[10] It should be noted that David Geier is not and has never been a doctor of any kind, and in the same case was charged with practising medicine without a license.
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#10  Postby monkeyboy » Jan 22, 2017 2:54 pm

Pebble wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:Even if they did cause autism, the sheer numbers of lives saved by vaccines would still far outweigh any risk of autism. Now apply the fact that there is no correlation between incidents of autism and vaccines. No brainer.




Works beautifully on a population basis - that argument fails with the average person thinking only of their child - other people taking 'risks' with their children provides the herd immunity that their individual child benefits from without the vaccination risks.


Worked fine with us regarding vaccinating the kids. Proven benefits of vaccinating, like not getting potentially fatal or life changing things like measles mumps etc and a non proven risk of autism as a trade off. Safest Road for my kids was quite obviously vaccination. If it were possible for me to regress to a time when I was unvaccinated and had to make the call for myself, I'd be jabbed in a trice.
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#11  Postby Macdoc » Apr 03, 2017 3:28 am

Required reading for anyone anti-vax ....even those skipping flu shots

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/02/healt ... index.html

just.....get,,,,,the....fucking ......shot!!
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#12  Postby aban57 » Oct 02, 2017 9:01 am

I don't know why there are still discussions about autism and vaccinations. I'm not talking about anti-vax idiots, but "normal" people. We already know that Wakefield, who made the original claim, did so because he was paid 750K dollars by a lawyer who wanted to launch a class action. This argument alone should be enough to stop any discussion on that topic.
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#13  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 02, 2017 9:18 am

The autism link claim seems to be based on a singular paper from the '90s, which has since been retracted and it's author has lost his doctor's title.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#14  Postby aban57 » Oct 02, 2017 9:24 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:The autism link claim seems to be based on a singular paper from the '90s, which has since been retracted and it's author has lost his doctor's title.


That's the Wakefield guy I'm talking about. Read the link, and see the extent of his fraud. It's not just a faulty paper.
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#15  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 02, 2017 9:37 am

aban57 wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:The autism link claim seems to be based on a singular paper from the '90s, which has since been retracted and it's author has lost his doctor's title.


That's the Wakefield guy I'm talking about. Read the link, and see the extent of his fraud. It's not just a faulty paper.

I know, that's why he lost his title.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#16  Postby Sendraks » Oct 02, 2017 9:40 am

It's not even just the fraud, some of his procedures on children we not appropriate.
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#17  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 02, 2017 3:03 pm

"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#18  Postby UltimoReducto » Mar 19, 2018 8:15 am

The story always used to be that it was unethical to compare vaccinated versus unvaccinated, same excuse not to test GMOs. But stories always change, like how the mercury couldn’t get into your brain but now that it can it’s good for you.
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#19  Postby UltimoReducto » Mar 19, 2018 8:18 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:The autism link claim seems to be based on a singular paper from the '90s, which has since been retracted and it's author has lost his doctor's title.

I can point to thousands of papers that are totally fraudulent and will never be retracted, but you sure strongarmed that Wakefield guy! Why do people use this appeal to authority? Are you trying to make it look like a cover up?
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Re: Studies between Health between Vaxxed and UnvaxxEd populatio

#20  Postby aban57 » Mar 19, 2018 8:26 am

UltimoReducto wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:The autism link claim seems to be based on a singular paper from the '90s, which has since been retracted and it's author has lost his doctor's title.

I can point to thousands of papers that are totally fraudulent and will never be retracted, but you sure strongarmed that Wakefield guy! Why do people use this appeal to authority? Are you trying to make it look like a cover up?


Where do you see any appeal to authority here ? Saying that Wakefield was a fraud, a liar and an asshole is not giving him any authority, on the contrary. What cover up are you talking about ?
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