The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

Homeopathy, Chiropractic and similar "alternative" views

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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#581  Postby natselrox » Jun 10, 2010 1:44 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Shrunk wrote:

How do you test a treatment on a healthy person i.e. one not suffering the disease for which you're trying to find a treatment?

And are you really claiming that no conventional treatment are tested on human subjects?


That's called provings.

In conventional medicine, new medicines (sources are mostly chemical/synthetic) are constantly being created, tested in test-tubes, sick persons, or animals (mainly rats), and going in and out of market every few years/decades once their side effects become obvious to the general public. Some are also tested on human beings.


:sigh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_trial
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#582  Postby natselrox » Jun 10, 2010 1:47 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
natselrox wrote:Just a question, Ms. Malik, do homeopathic meds work on animals?


Research claims to have confirmed the efficacy of homeopathic medicine on animals and it is unlikely that they will react psychologically to a medicine they often do not know they are being given

For more than 150 yrs, many veterinarians using homeopathic medicines to treat domestic pets such as cats, dogs and birds, as well as barnyard animals like goats, horses and cows. Is it possible to have a placebo effect with animals?


Unless the observer is biased.

I wonder how that circle of germinal layers in homeopathy works for diploblastic, unicellular animals etc.! :lol:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#583  Postby Mr.Samsa » Jun 10, 2010 1:57 am

natselrox wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
natselrox wrote:Just a question, Ms. Malik, do homeopathic meds work on animals?


Research claims to have confirmed the efficacy of homeopathic medicine on animals and it is unlikely that they will react psychologically to a medicine they often do not know they are being given

For more than 150 yrs, many veterinarians using homeopathic medicines to treat domestic pets such as cats, dogs and birds, as well as barnyard animals like goats, horses and cows. Is it possible to have a placebo effect with animals?


Unless the observer is biased.

I wonder how that circle of germinal layers in homeopathy works for diploblastic, unicellular animals etc.! :lol:


Correct, Dr Natselrox: observer bias is a big factor when studying placebo effects in animals, but Ms Malik here has also made another mistake - placebo effects don't require the patient to know what's happening. Weird though, to practice in a field that is constantly accused of relying solely on the placebo effect, defending it for many pages on an internet forum, and not even knowing what the placebo effect is.

Ms Malik, placebo effects are very common in animals and the most likely mechanism through which it works (classical conditioning) was actually discovered through experiments on animals. Although 'expectancy' is often reported as an important factor that determines a placebo effect, it is not necessary nor is it necessary for this expectation to be conscious.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#584  Postby natselrox » Jun 10, 2010 2:02 am

I didn't know that conditioning plays a role in the placebo effect. Interesting. Sounds bogus though.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#585  Postby Mr.Samsa » Jun 10, 2010 2:22 am

natselrox wrote:I didn't know that conditioning plays a role in the placebo effect. Interesting. Sounds bogus though.


Yeah, well, your face sounds bogus! :tongue:

Have a look at some of the research on the topic, the main mechanism all of the authors cite is classical conditioning. And it makes sense, since all bodily processes can be influenced and shaped through classical conditioning - for instance, some researchers managed to suppress the immune system of rats by pairing it with sweetened water back in the 70s or 80s. (Perhaps there is some support for homeopathy after all! :grin: )
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#586  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Jun 10, 2010 6:42 am

Here all, you pieces of shit apologists for Homeopathic wankery. One of the wives of an old Lecturer at Murdoch University in Western Australia died from taking homeopathic advice:-

The State Coroner is investigating the death of a Perth woman who died of cancer after refusing traditional medical treatment in favour of alternative therapies.

Penelope Dingle died of bowel cancer in 2005.

In 2007, her family approached the coroner's court to investigate her death.

The inquest has been told Mrs Dingle was being treated by a homeopath when she developed symptoms from bowel cancer.

Counsel assisting the coroner told the court her condition was not diagnosed until two years later at which point her homeopath told Mrs Dingle her cancer could be cured with alternative therapies.

Mrs Dingle then refused treatment from doctors who told her she had a reasonable chance of recovery if she underwent chemotherapy and an operation.

The coroner has been asked to determine whether there should be any negative recommendations made about the homeopath or the regulation of the industry.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... 922714.htm

@ Mods, fuckin ban all these wankers before another needless death! Yes, I am pissed! :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#587  Postby Lazar » Jun 10, 2010 7:49 am


!
MODNOTE
DB this post contains a personal attack against other members (see bold).
Darwinsbulldog wrote:Here all, you pieces of shit apologists for Homeopathic wankery. One of the wives of an old Lecturer at Murdoch University in Western Australia died from taking homeopathic advice:-

The State Coroner is investigating the death of a Perth woman who died of cancer after refusing traditional medical treatment in favour of alternative therapies.

Penelope Dingle died of bowel cancer in 2005.

In 2007, her family approached the coroner's court to investigate her death.

The inquest has been told Mrs Dingle was being treated by a homeopath when she developed symptoms from bowel cancer.

Counsel assisting the coroner told the court her condition was not diagnosed until two years later at which point her homeopath told Mrs Dingle her cancer could be cured with alternative therapies.

Mrs Dingle then refused treatment from doctors who told her she had a reasonable chance of recovery if she underwent chemotherapy and an operation.

The coroner has been asked to determine whether there should be any negative recommendations made about the homeopath or the regulation of the industry.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... 922714.htm

@ Mods, fuckin ban all these wankers before another needless death! Yes, I am pissed! :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:


Given your recent advisory, I am issuing you a warning.

If you wish to discuss this issue or other moderation issues please PM me or another moderator or open a thread in feedback.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#588  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Jun 10, 2010 8:20 am

If my post above saves one person from being sucked in by this dangerous and predatory cult of Homeopathy, then the warning was worth it.

I do not defy the rules lightly.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#589  Postby GenesForLife » Jun 10, 2010 9:10 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Shrunk wrote:

How do you test a treatment on a healthy person i.e. one not suffering the disease for which you're trying to find a treatment?

And are you really claiming that no conventional treatment are tested on human subjects?


That's called provings.

In conventional medicine, new medicines (sources are mostly chemical/synthetic) are constantly being created, tested in test-tubes, sick persons, or animals (mainly rats), and going in and out of market every few years/decades once their side effects become obvious to the general public. Some are also tested on human beings.


:rofl:

All drugs that require approval by regulatory bodies MUST be tested on humans. Are you also trying to suggest "sick persons"
aren't human beings? :lol:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#590  Postby Paul G » Jun 10, 2010 9:53 am

Paul G wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Paul G wrote:
If I had AIDS, what would you prescribe me?


It's not a one line answer. It needs in depth analysis of your case and pathological tests. But the role of homeopathy treatment of AIDS you can find in
http://www.peterchappell.net/sub.php?gr ... for%20AIDS
http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/mar/23aids.htm
http://www.modernhomoeopathy.com/tubaid%20miracles.htm


What sort of things are generally prescribed? Just after a brief explanation as I don't want to peruse through links.

Are you familiar with M.E? I suffer from it and would be happy for you try and cure me. We could do it on the Rational Skepticism podcast.



Please.....
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#591  Postby Darkchilde » Jun 10, 2010 9:54 am

@DB: I understand your frustration, especially since you have lost someone because of homeopathic crap. But banning people, especially those that are advocates of homeopathy will not help sway people away from such dangerous pursuits; but showing that homeopathy does not work, and that homeopaths are not real doctors, and actually, do not know anything about medicine, does help. Your real world example is one of those that should be shown and taught in schools, in order to help children think critically and logically.

@Nancy Malik: you still have not presented evidence that homeopathy works, and you are not persuading anyone here to trust homeopathy. There are unanswered questions about homeopathy, its practices, its control mechanisms which you have not answered. I do not know whether you have not seen them, or you have and are avoiding those; however, here are some of the unanswered as yet questions:

1. http://www.rationalskepticism.org/pseudoscience/the-danger-of-science-denial-alternative-medicine-split-t7418-540.html#p264791;
2. http://www.rationalskepticism.org/pseudoscience/the-danger-of-science-denial-alternative-medicine-split-t7418-500.html#p263782: Although Mr P, is asking generalsemanticist, I would like you, Nancy Malik to answer this, as you are a homeopath.
3. http://www.rationalskepticism.org/pseudoscience/the-danger-of-science-denial-alternative-medicine-split-t7418-480.html#p257916

And the above three posts with unanswered questions are just 5 pages back. I am sure that if I search through the whole trhead, I will find many more unanswered questions. I'll add this question:

Homeopathy talks about the "Memory of Water". if that was true, then water would "remember" a number of dangerous ingredients, like radioactive material, the feces of various humans and animals containing any number of diseases, all diseases and microbes and everything else. In short, that water we would not be able to use and/or drink because it would have been contaminated with all sorts of "bad memories". Which means basically that we would not be able to drink any water, or do anything with water at all. How does homeopathy solve this problem?

Nancy Malik, please answer the previous questions.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#592  Postby GenesForLife » Jun 10, 2010 9:58 am

Paul, problem is it is a mitochondrial disorder, and is characterised extremely low intracellular ATP levels. Painkillers are the best bet.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#593  Postby Shrunk » Jun 10, 2010 10:57 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Shrunk wrote:

How do you test a treatment on a healthy person i.e. one not suffering the disease for which you're trying to find a treatment?

And are you really claiming that no conventional treatment are tested on human subjects?


That's called provings.

In conventional medicine, new medicines (sources are mostly chemical/synthetic) are constantly being created, tested in test-tubes, sick persons, or animals (mainly rats), and going in and out of market every few years/decades once their side effects become obvious to the general public. Some are also tested on human beings.


"Some"? So can you name a single conventional drug that has been released to the market without clinical testing on human subjects?

And you continue to avoid the question: Has a single homeopathic remedy been abandoned because it was found to be ineffective or unsafe? If not, how to explain this superhuman infallibility of homeopaths, unique among any human endeavour?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#594  Postby Paul G » Jun 10, 2010 12:11 pm

GenesForLife wrote:Paul, problem is it is a mitochondrial disorder, and is characterised extremely low intracellular ATP levels. Painkillers are the best bet.



Painkillers are conventional medicine. There's plenty of quack treatments around I've do doubt homepathy claims to have a treatment.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#595  Postby DST70 » Jun 10, 2010 12:48 pm

Shrunk wrote:Welcome to the board, David.

The problem is that there are "personal and profound" subjective experiences to validate nearly any phenomenon, whether that is ESP, voodoo, fairies or anything else you wish to name. Some of these, of course, are beyond the realm of scientific verification. But homeopathy is not among these. It makes claims that are scientifically testable, and those claims are demonstrably false. It doesn't mean that your experiences are not real. It just means that the homeopathic explanation for them is incorrect.


Thanks for your reply.

The curious thing for me is the gap between the strength of one kind of evidence (personal) and the relative weakness or unreliability of another (scientific). The water memory theory is not one I think all homeopaths subscribe to, just flavour of the month. So I agree that there's no fully satisfying explanation on offer - as there are also a lot of problems with resorting to the placebo effect, in my opinion.

It will be interesting to see how things develop in the future.

PaulG, you have my sympathy, I also suffered from ME.

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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#596  Postby Paul G » Jun 10, 2010 12:51 pm

Cheers, I'm sure you'll have realised there's all sorts of supposed treatments available. Some just advocating dietry changes to rather, ahem, exotic and expensive treatments.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#597  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 10, 2010 1:49 pm

Mr.Samsa wrote:Weird though, to practice in a field that is constantly accused of relying solely on the placebo effect, defending it for many pages on an internet forum, and not even knowing what the placebo effect is.



the placebo effect is a real phenomenon, but those who follow mainstream science only, use it as more of a blanket term to 'explain' any medical phenomemon they either do not understand, or which does not fit in with their theories. Why is it that if a very definite effect is observed after the administration of anything 'non-orthodox', it is simply 'the placebo effect', yet when a similar effect is observed after the administration of an orthodox drug, then the effect of course is due to the drug, simply because the mechanism involved is understood? That is not science.
Evidence-based scientific homeopathy is a modern nano-medicine like Conventional Allopathic Medicine (CAM)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#598  Postby Mr P » Jun 10, 2010 1:53 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Mr.Samsa wrote:Weird though, to practice in a field that is constantly accused of relying solely on the placebo effect, defending it for many pages on an internet forum, and not even knowing what the placebo effect is.



the placebo effect is a real phenomenon, but those who follow mainstream science only, use it as more of a blanket term to 'explain' any medical phenomemon they either do not understand, or which does not fit in with their theories. Why is it that if a very definite effect is observed after the administration of anything 'non-orthodox', it is simply 'the placebo effect', yet when a similar effect is observed after the administration of an orthodox drug, then the effect of course is due to the drug, simply because the mechanism involved is understood? That is not science.

Another evasion.

Have you no answer to the perfectly reasonable questions put to you here: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/posting.php?mode=quote&f=36&p=267200#pr266742
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#599  Postby natselrox » Jun 10, 2010 1:54 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Mr.Samsa wrote:Weird though, to practice in a field that is constantly accused of relying solely on the placebo effect, defending it for many pages on an internet forum, and not even knowing what the placebo effect is.



the placebo effect is a real phenomenon, but those who follow mainstream science only, use it as more of a blanket term to 'explain' any medical phenomemon they either do not understand, or which does not fit in with their theories. Why is it that if a very definite effect is observed after the administration of anything 'non-orthodox', it is simply 'the placebo effect', yet when a similar effect is observed after the administration of an orthodox drug, then the effect of course is due to the drug, simply because the mechanism involved is understood? That is not science.


This is bullshit.

Do you think that Aspirin/Penicillin/Macrolides/Diazepams etc. are claimed to be working by the placebo effect? We know the exact molecular mechanism of working of these drugs. Name any mainstream drug and we can explain to you how it works. Try this approach, it works for most people.

It's all crap with Homeopathy though.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#600  Postby Paul G » Jun 10, 2010 2:20 pm

3 times now Malik...
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