The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

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Re: The Danger of Science Denial

#81  Postby lordshipmayhem » May 26, 2010 2:52 am

generalsemanticist wrote:
Elena wrote:
HughMcB wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:Bacteria or for the matter of fact any germ is not the cause of disease. It's the environment which plays the decisive role

Please tell me you are not responsible for people's health. :facepalm:

Indeed.

Please tell me your doctor is not responsible for your health. We are all responsible for our own health. Dr. Malik makes a valid point. Disease is a result of a number of factors, not merely the presence of a pathogen. We are exposed to them continuously so why are we not sick all the time?

No, Dr. Malik's claim is not that pathogens are just one cause of disease, but that pathogens have nothing to do with disease. That this flies in the face of evidence gathered over more than 150 years of medical research is the issue we have with her.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#82  Postby Darwinsbulldog » May 26, 2010 6:33 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:

Bacteria or for the matter of fact any germ is not the cause of disease. It's the environment which plays the decisive role


Only about 3% of bacteria are harmful to humans. There are also symbiotic bacteria in the gut. And according to Professor Lynn Margilis, some, or even all our organelles [especially mitochondria in all eukaryotes, and chloroplasts in plants] are endosymbiots.

Margulis, L. (1981). Symbiosis in Cell Evolution, Macmillan Publishers Limited.

Margulis, L. (1996). "Archaeal-eubacterial mergers in the origin of Eukarya: phylogenetic classification of life." Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 93: 1071 - 1076.

Margulis, L. (1970). Origin of the Eukaryotic Cells, Macmillan Publishers Limited.

Further, there are some endogenous endoviruses, many of them ex-retroviruses. See the papers by Frank Ryan. eg:-

Ryan, F. P. (2004). "Human endogenous retroviruses in health and disease: a symbiotic perspective." J R Soc Med 97(12): 560-565.
RYAN, F. P. (2006). "Genomic creativity and natural selection: a modern synthesis." Biological Journal of the Linnean Society 88(4): 655-672.
In the early 1930s, the synthesis of Darwinian natural selection, mutation, and Mendelian genetics gave rise to the paradigm of 'modern Darwinism', also known as 'neo-Darwinism'. This has contributed greatly to our understanding. But increasing knowledge of other mechanisms, including endosymbiosis, genetic and genomic duplication, polyploidy, hybridization, epigenetics, horizontal gene transfer in prokaryotes, and the modern synthesis of embryonic development and evolution, has widened our horizons to a diversity of possibilities for change. All of these can be gathered under the umbrella concept of 'genomic creativity', which, in partnership with natural selection, affords a more comprehensive modern explanation of evolution.  © 2006 The Linnean Society of London, Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 2006, 88, 6552013672.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#83  Postby Elena » May 26, 2010 11:37 am

What's important to emphasize is that the statement
Bacteria or for the matter of fact any germ is not the cause of disease.
is scientifically invalid.

There would be no infectious diseases without pathogens -period.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial

#84  Postby natselrox » May 26, 2010 11:39 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:Bacteria or for the matter of fact any germ is not the cause of disease. It's the environment which plays the decisive role


It's hard to believe that you have primary school education...:rofl:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#85  Postby generalsemanticist » May 26, 2010 12:16 pm

I understood Dr. Malik to mean that pathogens are involved in disease but the environment in which it operates plays a more important role. I'm not sure I agree with that totally - I might suggest that its 50-50. I don't see any need to insult her - its so childish. :(
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#86  Postby natselrox » May 26, 2010 12:20 pm

generalsemanticist wrote:I understood Dr. Malik to mean that pathogens are involved in disease but the environment in which it operates plays a more important role. I'm not sure I agree with that totally - I might suggest that its 50-50. I don't see any need to insult her - its so childish. :(


Insult her? I meant that as a compliment.

Which part of this is difficult to understand?

Irrespective of the nature of the environment, if you drink a glass full of water with Rotavirus, you are going to need the loo.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#87  Postby Shrunk » May 26, 2010 12:31 pm

generalsemanticist wrote:I understood Dr. Malik to mean that pathogens are involved in disease but the environment in which it operates plays a more important role. I'm not sure I agree with that totally - I might suggest that its 50-50. I don't see any need to insult her - its so childish. :(


Here's what she actually wrote:

Bacteria or for the matter of fact any germ is not the cause of disease. It's the environment which plays the decisive role

Louis Pasteur on his death bed recanted the germ theory of disease and said, "If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that germs seek their natural habitat---unhealthy tissue---rather than being the cause of unhealthy tissue."


That seems quite clear: She believes microorganisms are only found coincidentally in "unhealthy tissue", that they are there only as a result of "seeking their natural habitat" and are not in any way repsonsible for causing disease. For such an ignorant idea, she would deserve every insult thrown her way even if she was an uneducated layperson. That she actually believes herself capable of treating ill people only worsens the situation.
Last edited by Shrunk on May 26, 2010 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#88  Postby Shrunk » May 26, 2010 12:37 pm

BTW, Dr. Malik seems to have misattributed her quote. Every other source attributes it to Rudolf Virchow.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#89  Postby Darkchilde » May 26, 2010 12:38 pm

Shrunk wrote:BTW, Dr. Malik seems to have misattributed her quote. Every other source attributes it to Rudolf Virchow.


I asked for the source of that quote, and she has not answered me yet.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#90  Postby Shrunk » May 26, 2010 12:43 pm

Darkchilde wrote:
Shrunk wrote:BTW, Dr. Malik seems to have misattributed her quote. Every other source attributes it to Rudolf Virchow.


I asked for the source of that quote, and she has not answered me yet.


She was probably (mis)quoting from this woo site (Bold in original):

Louis Pasteur, on his deathbed, finally recanted his germ theory by admitting that "The Microbe is nothing. The terrain is everything."

The terrain is not the immune system, but the normal alkaline and oxygenated environment of the human body. The immune system only kicks in when the terrain becomes acidic or lacks oxygen allowing pathogenic microbes to breed.

This was echoed by Rudolph Virchow (Father of Pathology), who said :

"If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that germs seek their natural habitat, diseased tissue, rather than being the cause of the diseased tissue; e.g., mosquitoes seek the stagnant water, but do not cause the pool to become stagnant."
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#91  Postby Elena » May 26, 2010 1:05 pm

Shrunk wrote: This was echoed by Rudolph Virchow (Father of Pathology), who said :

"If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that [b]germs seek their natural habitat, diseased tissue, rather than being the cause of the diseased tissue; e.g., mosquitoes seek the stagnant water, but do not cause the pool to become stagnant." [/b]

With mosquitoes not being germs-- and not looking for a host, but for a place to lay eggs...

:what:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#92  Postby Shrunk » May 26, 2010 1:24 pm

Elena wrote:
Shrunk wrote: This was echoed by Rudolph Virchow (Father of Pathology), who said :

"If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that [b]germs seek their natural habitat, diseased tissue, rather than being the cause of the diseased tissue; e.g., mosquitoes seek the stagnant water, but do not cause the pool to become stagnant." [/b]

With mosquitoes not being germs-- and not looking for a host, but for a place to lay eggs...

:what:


I assume Virchow meant that as an analogy. In any event, in context Dr. Malik's quote, misattributed though it is, makes it even clearer what her position is: Germs don't cause disease any more than mosquitoes cause stagnant water. I wonder if she washes her hands before she eats?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#93  Postby Elena » May 26, 2010 1:28 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Elena wrote:
Shrunk wrote: This was echoed by Rudolph Virchow (Father of Pathology), who said :

"If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that [b]germs seek their natural habitat, diseased tissue, rather than being the cause of the diseased tissue; e.g., mosquitoes seek the stagnant water, but do not cause the pool to become stagnant." [/b]

With mosquitoes not being germs-- and not looking for a host, but for a place to lay eggs...

:what:


I assume Virchow meant that as an analogy.

Right. The problem is that with germs being so prevalent worldwide, why not steer from mosquitoes and water --and make instead an analogy based on pathogenic microorganisms?

In any event, in context Dr. Malik's quote, misattributed though it is, makes it even clearer what her position is: Germs don't cause disease any more than mosquitoes cause stagnant water. I wonder if she washes her hands before she eats?

Worrisome, I agree.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#94  Postby generalsemanticist » May 26, 2010 1:43 pm

She said

Bacteria or for the matter of fact any germ is not the cause of disease. It's the environment which plays the decisive role


Italics mine. To me this means both pathogens and environment are involved but she places more emphasis on the environment. But I'm just a semanticist, what do I know.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#95  Postby Elena » May 26, 2010 2:18 pm

generalsemanticist wrote:She said

Bacteria or for the matter of fact any germ is not the cause of disease. It's the environment which plays the decisive role


Italics mine. To me this means both pathogens and environment are involved but she places more emphasis on the environment. But I'm just a semanticist, what do I know.

And that emphasis-with no contingency clauses- is misplaced, biologically speaking. ;)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#96  Postby GenesForLife » May 26, 2010 2:22 pm

The second sentence has nothing to do with the veracity of the first, which crearly states Bacteria or any germ is not the cause of disease.

Even then, the same pathogens causing the same diseases upon infection even in different environments puts that to bed.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#97  Postby Moridin » May 26, 2010 2:44 pm

generalsemanticist wrote:She said

Bacteria or for the matter of fact any germ is not the cause of disease. It's the environment which plays the decisive role


Italics mine. To me this means both pathogens and environment are involved but she places more emphasis on the environment. But I'm just a semanticist, what do I know.


Pathogens are part of your environment, but you can get sick from just pathogens, but not just from non-pathogen environmental factors. This is the key point here.

If pathogens are not a decisive factor, then it is hard to explain why the smallpox vaccine worked, for instance.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#98  Postby Shrunk » May 26, 2010 3:52 pm

Moridin wrote: Pathogens are part of your environment, but you can get sick from just pathogens, but not just from non-pathogen environmental factors. This is the key point here.

If pathogens are not a decisive factor, then it is hard to explain why the smallpox vaccine worked, for instance.


I guess the woo purveyers would come back with, "But the vaccine worked by changing the environment." Unfortunately for Dr. Malik, the website she used to support her claim doesn't seem to believe in immunology, either.

Quack site wrote:The terrain is not the immune system, but the normal alkaline and oxygenated environment of the human body. The immune system only kicks in when the terrain becomes acidic or lacks oxygen allowing pathogenic microbes to breed.


http://www.detoxifynow.com/real_cause_of_cancer.html

I hope Dr. Malik comes back to try defend her claims. I would seriously like to know if she washes her hands before eating, or after using the washroom, and is so why. (And if not, I think she should inform her clients.)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#99  Postby GenesForLife » May 26, 2010 4:03 pm

That assertion is shot down by the very mechanisms of immune system function.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#100  Postby Shrunk » May 26, 2010 4:12 pm

GenesForLife wrote:That assertion is shot down by the very mechanisms of immune system function.


Obviously, one would think. Yet here we are, arguing about it. In the 21 st century. With someone who has the temerity to promote herself as a medical expert, no less.
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