The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

Homeopathy, Chiropractic and similar "alternative" views

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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#881  Postby Shrunk » Jun 21, 2010 5:24 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:I can think of two ways to do it, and there are probably more.

1. Find a group of patients who all need the same remedy, and then either give them the remedy or a placebo -- double blind.

2. Have a homeopath prescribe an individual remedy for each patient, and have an assistant decide who gets the remedy and who gets the placebo.


We've presented you with abundant examples of both. I did just a bit earlier, and Dudely reminded you of it just above.

I don't think I'm the one getting worn down by the discussion.

Edit: Here it is, to make it easier to find:

pseudoscience/the-danger-of-science-denial-alternative-medicine-split-t7418-860.html#p293342
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#882  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 5:26 pm

Shrunk wrote:
OHSU wrote:You realize that 35% is within the expected parameters for the placebo effect in analgesics, right?


As was clear from her very first post in this thread, Nancy Malik doesn't know what a placebo is.


Placebos or medicine. A good laugh at ourselves ? either way you think it works for us and millions.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#883  Postby Shrunk » Jun 21, 2010 5:27 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote: Placebos or medicine. A good laugh at ourselves ? either way you think it works for us and millions.


What is this even supposed to mean?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#884  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 5:28 pm

campermon wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Conventional medicine's approach is of compartments. Cardioligist is looking after heart compartment. Gastreontologist is looking after .......and so on, as if different compartment has nothing to do with each other.


But it works to save lives and prolong healthy lives (see my previous post). I'm afraid that you just have to suck it up 'Dr'.

;)


Conventional medicine has saved millions of lives. No doubt about that. But it should not be left unquestioned because it has also killed million
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#885  Postby GenesForLife » Jun 21, 2010 5:31 pm

The system has built in pracitses to question it as and when required, what beggars belief is that a homeopath, of all people, a homeopath who has demonstrated an abject failure to meet the same stringent standards of evidence and testing demanded of conventional medicine, is talking about questioning things, oh, the irony!
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#886  Postby Shrunk » Jun 21, 2010 5:34 pm

GenesForLife wrote:The system has built in pracitses to question it as and when required, what beggars belief is that a homeopath, of all people, a homeopath who has demonstrated an abject failure to meet the same stringent standards of evidence and testing demanded of conventional medicine, is talking about questioning things, oh, the irony!


As we have seen, if someone with HIV/AIDS is unfortunate enough to be "treated" by a homeopath, rather than a real doctor, any neurological complications he might be experiencing would not be detected, because most homeopaths don't even know these exist. That seems a pretty good way of killing someone (though, of course, the homeopathic "treatment" would not be to blame.)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#887  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 5:46 pm

OHSU wrote:
Is the value of a substance as a curative agent not tied to its chemical and physical properties? How is it, then, that substances that are made into homeopathic preparations become chemically and physically indistinguishable from water in every single way, yet still retain the ability to cure illness? Doesn't it seem just a little bit odd that for hundreds or thousands of completely unrelated substances, the property related to treating disease is precisely the quality (and the ONLY quality) that happens to be retained when diluted in water, and that for each of the hundreds or thousands of substances in question, that special property that makes the substance curative is not otherwise detectable via any means? That seems like quite a coincidence to me.

If water retained some but not all the physical or chemical properties of diluted substances, doesn't it seem likely that different substances would behave differently? For example, doesn't it seem that certain substances would totally lose whatever property it is that makes them useful for treating disease, but they'd retain their color, while for other substances it might be smell, and others their flammability? It just seems really strange and not a little suspicious to me that all substances should lose all their properties, and become completely indistinguishable from pure water except for whatever property they have that makes them curative.

Can someone knowledgeable in homeopathy explain the chemical or physical mechanism of that to me?


Many experiments have been conducted in the more remote past as well as re-cently, to at least prove the existence of something in our potencies, of which I will give some examples here.

1. In 1948, Wormser and Loch tested several substances from 24X to 30X. They used a photoelectric cell, to measure the intensity and wavelength of these potencies and found measurable changes, of both intensity and wave-length in these substances.

2. In the years 1951-3, Gay and Boiron tested both distilled water and Natrum muriaticum in the 27C potency for their dielectric constant. They were able to show that the potency of Natrum mur. could be easily selec-ted from among 99 control bottles.

3. In 1963, Boericke and Smith tested a 12X potency of Sulphur, with and without succussion. They tested the solvent structure by nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum. They found that there were structural changes in the solvent, as the potency was increased by succussion, while no such change was detected in the controls. They repeated the experiment in 1974, with diverse potencies of Sulphur, up to the 30C.

4. In 1966, Stephenson and Brucato tested both distilled water and Mercu-rius corrosivus, from the 1X to the 33X. They found that the dielectric constant for the controls varied from 5.6 to 6.05. For the homoeopathic potencies it varied from 2.8 to 4.4.

5. In 1975, Young tested Sulphur from 5X to 30X, with controls. He also tested the solvent structure by nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum. He found that there were measurable changes in the spectra at each dilution and succussion. No such changes were observed for the solution without succussion or without Sulphur.

6. In 1976, Boiron and Vinh used Raman Laser Spectroscopy, showing that for the 1C potency of Kali bichromicum the spectrum of alcohol disap-pears completely, while that for potassium bichromate appears. In Kali bich 1C the ratio of the number of potassium bichromate molecules is 1 to 500. In such a case the light meets 500 more alcohol molecules as those of bichromate, yet the alcohol spectrum does not appear.

7. In 1982, Resch, Gutman and Schauer found that dilute sodium chloride solutions revealed an increase in electrical conductivity, by rocking them prior to measurement.

8. Four French researchers developed a method of detection through nu-clear magnetic resonance, conducted in the late 80's, which shows spe-cific sinus waves for each potency, as well as a specific sinus wave for the substance used. These latter remain the same throughout all poten-cies of that substance, while the sinus wave expressing the potencies, are specific to those potencies. Thus a clear and recognisable scientifi-cally provable frame of reference exists, for each remedy and potency.

9. More recent NMR studies have reached similar conclusions (Demangeat et al., 1992; Weingärtner, 1992).

10. Recent experiments with Raman Laser Spectrography have shown that a 1M potency (1 divided by 100 to the –1000th power) of Kali bichromicum reveal the spectrum of Kali bichromicum and not that of water. It must be realized that there are supposedly no molecules of Kali bichromicum present in this dilution rate, since it is way beyond Avogadro’s limit, which lies at 1024 or 10012.

11. Another Raman Laser Spectrography test with Natrum muriaticum 10M showed the spectrum of Chloride of sodium, instead that of water. It must be noted that here the dilution rate is a 1000 times smaller still than that of the previous example.

12. Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride (10-30 g/cm-3) have been irradiated by X-rays at 77 K, then progressively rewarmed to room temperature. During that phase, their thermo luminescence has been studied and it was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avo-gadro number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially.

Reference
http://chestjournal.chestpubs.org/conte ... 3/936.full
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#888  Postby Paul » Jun 21, 2010 5:50 pm

DST70 wrote:
Paul wrote:So in other words homoeopathy can't be validated in any way? We just have to have "faith"?


I don't see a way to validate any mechanism of homeopathy within current understanding of the physical sciences. I think it's logically and empirically possible to validate the efficacy of a homeopathic remedy, but not without considerable shifts in the viewpoint of medicine. Can't see it happening for a while, but who knows what the future holds?

Is faith really the only thing you're left with after all this?


Someone tells me "this 200 years old spark of intuition will work, but it defies physics, and I haven't a clue how it really works". What else is there other than faith?

I wonder how the claims of faith healers stack up in trials against the claims of homoeopaths :scratch:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#889  Postby Shrunk » Jun 21, 2010 5:50 pm

Nancy, the link in your last post is not related to what you posted.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#890  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 5:52 pm

OHSU wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:Conventional doctors perceive the body as a physical and chemical entity, much like a mechanic would view a machine. Using this “mechanistic” approach, their concern is to examine these structures using a variety of technologies such as X-rays, MRI’s, CT scans, gastroscopes, colonoscopes, biochemical lab tests and the like.


And how is that a bad thing? What is the body, if not a physical and chemical entity? What is disease, if not an alteration of a chemcial or physical process in the body? How does one discover the cause of a disease if not via examination of the body's physical and chemical processes?


Homeopathy medicine works at the energy level and is much more faster and safer. It needs a different mind set to understand homeopathy where as a materialistic mind can easily grasp conventional because its healing system basically hovers around the body and the organs and its dissection, anatomy and physiology. It does not take the mind, the thoughts, the emotions, its consciousness, its dreams, its waking, sleeping, into consideration while treating the body.

The body is all they see, the body is all they treat, and the body is all they cut into pieces ultimately and once nothing is left behind for surgery, look upto homeopathy to heal.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#891  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 5:55 pm

Shrunk wrote:Nancy, the link in your last post is not related to what you posted.


The mechanism of homeopathy is tied to its working beyond avogadro's number. My post is about homeopathy and avogadro's numnber. So it's not unrelated
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#892  Postby Dudely » Jun 21, 2010 5:57 pm

I, also, seem to have been linked to the wrong page. Could you fix this for us please- I would like to see the original study.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#893  Postby Dudely » Jun 21, 2010 6:00 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Nancy, the link in your last post is not related to what you posted.


The mechanism of homeopathy is tied to its working beyond avogadro's number. My post is about homeopathy and avogadro's numnber. So it's not unrelated


No, you made a claim about scientists being able to see that the materials still had an effect once diluted past avogadro's numnber and you linked to a study on the "Influence of Potassium Dichromate on Tracheal Secretions in Critically Ill Patients". That is not related, as it doesn't back up the claim that those scientists did those studies and got those results.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#894  Postby Shrunk » Jun 21, 2010 6:03 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Nancy, the link in your last post is not related to what you posted.


The mechanism of homeopathy is tied to its working beyond avogadro's number. My post is about homeopathy and avogadro's numnber. So it's not unrelated


We want citations to those 12 studies you made reference to. If you don't have them at least a link to where you got those references.

You seem to take a homeopathic approach to scientific evidence. Even though a paper has nothing to do with the point you're trying to make, it still counts as evidence in your mind. Maybe the molecules of the paper contain some "memory" of the meaning of some other study that is not mentioned in the actual words printed on the page?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#895  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 6:04 pm

GenesForLife wrote:Evidence for that?


i repeat

All symptoms of illness are the body's first attempt to heal itself. A homeopath respects this natural tendency, and attempts to work with it rather than against it. Homeopathy does not seek to suppress symptoms. Its goal is to recognize and remove the underlying cause of these symptoms. This is why a homeopath will work toward understanding the whole person — including their body, mind and emotional state — before prescribing a remedy.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#896  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 6:06 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Nancy, the link in your last post is not related to what you posted.


The mechanism of homeopathy is tied to its working beyond avogadro's number. My post is about homeopathy and avogadro's numnber. So it's not unrelated


We want citations to those 12 studies you made reference to. If you don't have them at least a link to where you got those references.

You seem to take a homeopathic approach to scientific evidence. Even though a paper has nothing to do with the point you're trying to make, it still counts as evidence in your mind. Maybe the molecules of the paper contain some "memory" of the meaning of some other study that is not mentioned in the actual words printed on the page?


http://www.otherhealth.com/research-sci ... ebo-9.html
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#897  Postby Paul » Jun 21, 2010 6:06 pm

Shrunk wrote:You seem to take a homeopathic approach to scientific evidence. Even though a paper has nothing to do with the point you're trying to make, it still counts as evidence in your mind. Maybe the molecules of the paper contain some "memory" of the meaning of some other study that is not mentioned in the actual words printed on the page?


:rofl: Yeah! Just read it anyway and you'll get understand better.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#898  Postby Shrunk » Jun 21, 2010 6:07 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
GenesForLife wrote:Evidence for that?


i repeat

All symptoms of illness are the body's first attempt to heal itself. A homeopath respects this natural tendency, and attempts to work with it rather than against it. Homeopathy does not seek to suppress symptoms. Its goal is to recognize and remove the underlying cause of these symptoms. This is why a homeopath will work toward understanding the whole person — including their body, mind and emotional state — before prescribing a remedy.


So the symptoms don't go away, but the patient gets better. So someone with a migraine headache still has a throbbing pain in his head (we're not seeking to "suppress symptoms"), but because the "underlying cause" is gone, he should be grateful.

I'm starting to get it now.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#899  Postby RPizzle » Jun 21, 2010 6:10 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
RPizzle wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:

Homeopathy medicine for various disease conditions http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/research ... dence.html


Looking at the list of conditions in which homeopathy treats (from the site provided):

Dry mouth

HIV infection

While I think I can work out the mechanism in which homeopathy fixes the first condition, could I get an explanation on the mechanism for the second one?


http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/cont ... 5/2/221#T2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum
http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstr ... 31175.html


Ummmm.....

Two of these links seem to deal entirely with attitudes of medical practitioners in India, while another appears to be an abstract for an AIDS conference.

Of the remaining three links, only one provides information as to what homeopathic substance was used. Here is that abstract.

Abstract wrote:
The tumoricidal and antiviral effects of Staphylococcal toxins are well documented. In a preliminary study we investigated the immune modulating properties of these toxins by administering single oral doses of a 12c potency of a lysate of Staphylococcus aureus Cowan I, to 4 healthy probands and 12 HIV infected patients with clinical symptoms. We observed a decrease of circulating immune complexes in the healthy probands as well as in the HIV positive patients, accompanied in the latter by a significant increase of CD4 lymphocytes, CD4/CD8-ratio and an improvement of the HIV related symptoms. None of the dose dependent toxic effects commonly found in Staphylococcal sepsis were noticed. Further research on the immune modulating effects of potencies of bacterial superantigens is suggested, especially in view of a possible treatment for HIV infected and other immune compromised patients.


This is the only paper in which a mechanism could potentially be provided, since the others didn't list the substances used, and aren't available free full-text. What we are given is that Staphylococcal toxins are antiviral. There is no mention, however, of HOW 12c potency Staphylococcus actually affects the HIV virus.

Do you have any homeopathic remedies which can show an actual mechanism which interacts with the HIV virus?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#900  Postby Shrunk » Jun 21, 2010 6:10 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Nancy, the link in your last post is not related to what you posted.


The mechanism of homeopathy is tied to its working beyond avogadro's number. My post is about homeopathy and avogadro's numnber. So it's not unrelated


We want citations to those 12 studies you made reference to. If you don't have them at least a link to where you got those references.

You seem to take a homeopathic approach to scientific evidence. Even though a paper has nothing to do with the point you're trying to make, it still counts as evidence in your mind. Maybe the molecules of the paper contain some "memory" of the meaning of some other study that is not mentioned in the actual words printed on the page?


http://www.otherhealth.com/research-sci ... ebo-9.html


Oh for fuck's sake, Nancy! How is linking to a random page on some other forum that you've been spamming with your nonsense an answer to the very simple and specific request that has been made?

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