The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

Homeopathy, Chiropractic and similar "alternative" views

Discussions on astrology, homeopathy and superstition etc.

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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#661  Postby Dudely » Jun 10, 2010 7:39 pm

stijndeloose wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Dudely wrote:Would it be accurate then to say that you should be able to look at the body and see a stimulated homeostatic mechanism or that the body's response to disease/illness is greater after taking a homeopathic remedy? Would this be a good way of validating whether it is working or not?


Let me give you an example

Think of your body as your internal temperature gauge. If you go outside and it is very hot, your body will recognize it is too hot and begin to perspire. Your homeostatic mechanism is producing a symptom - perspiration - in an effort to cool down the body. If you go outside and it is very cold, the symptom is shivering. Your homeostatic mechanism is trying to warm the body up by shivering to produce heat.

Think about the last time you were shivering. You could not control it, and you did not stop until you were warm. It is the same way with homeopathic medicines. If you are ill and your body is showing symptoms, the symptoms will not disappear until the source of the symptoms has disappeared.


Again, you didn't answer Dr. Dudely's question.


Indeed. I understand perfectly where you are coming from. Your explanation was not needed. I am asking if the effect of stimulating the homeostatic mechanism can be observed upon successful delivering of homeopathic medicines.

It is my thought that, just as the immune system can be observed, if it exists and is a valid theory, the homeostatic mechanism can be observed as well. If so, it stands to reason that its stimulation by homeopathic medicines can also be observed, validating homeopathy as we know it (and earning you a cool 1 million from James Randi).
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#662  Postby wunksta » Jun 10, 2010 7:45 pm

Dudely wrote:If so, it stands to reason that its stimulation by homeopathic medicines can also be observed, validating homeopathy as we know it (and earning you a cool 1 million from James Randi).


oh but of course the medical and scientific world are against homeopathy and make up things to prevent homeopathy from being recognized as a legitimate practice

:roll:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#663  Postby Dudely » Jun 10, 2010 7:48 pm

wunksta wrote:
Dudely wrote:If so, it stands to reason that its stimulation by homeopathic medicines can also be observed, validating homeopathy as we know it (and earning you a cool 1 million from James Randi).


oh but of course the medical and scientific world are against homeopathy and make up things to prevent homeopathy from being recognized as a legitimate practice

:roll:


Nonetheless, if my postulating is correct anyone with a basic sense of how it works could study it and come up with the data, earning one million dollars in the process (as well as all the publicity you need to start a solid business selling homeopathic medication). I am curious why no one has done so.

Dr. Malik, could you enlighten me?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#664  Postby MedGen » Jun 10, 2010 8:27 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Except that happened long ago, certainly by the time she denied the germ theory of disease.


False.I have not denied the germ theory of disease. I accept it partially only.


What...the...fuck?! You deny the germ theory of disease? People who deny basic biological and medical concepts such as germ theory should not be providing medical care for people. This is highly unethical, not to mention incredibly dangerous, abso-fucking-lutely unbelievable. You really should be ashamed of yourself, calling yourself a medical professional. :nono:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#665  Postby Macdoc » Jun 10, 2010 8:39 pm

+1000

••
Now maybe this will put a dent in this nonsense

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/na ... 5877659069
Inquest hears of carers' concerns
Updated Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:51pm AEST


Penelope Dingle who died of bowel cancer after using homeopathic treatment

MAP: Perth 6000
The State Coroner has been told a woman who shunned traditional medical treatment in favour of alternative therapies, was under the 'complete control of her homeopath'.

Penelope Dingle died of rectal cancer in 2005 after she refused traditional medical treatment and chose natural medicine instead.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... 923936.htm

:nono:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#666  Postby DST70 » Jun 10, 2010 9:54 pm

Paul G wrote:Cheers, I'm sure you'll have realised there's all sorts of supposed treatments available. Some just advocating dietry changes to rather, ahem, exotic and expensive treatments.


Yes, although it's been a while since I kept up to date with medical thinking. I'd have to go back to the early 90s to say what the picture was then - mostly a lot of confusion and uncertainty. I hope things have progressed a bit since then?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#667  Postby DST70 » Jun 10, 2010 10:09 pm

Huh?


anecdotal evidence is no substitute for actual peer reviewed scientific analysis


What I was trying to say is that personal testimony covers a huge range of experience. There's the kind of reporting that you can correct with reference to an error in perception/memory e.g. eyewitness testimony. But there's also more direct and intimate first person accounting that's not always easily explained with reference to generalised data.

It counts as weak evidence though in the sense that the scientific data is not supportive. So there's a discrepancy between the two types, at least it seems to me. The placebo effect is obviously not always plausible to many of those with certain strong cases of non-scientific testimony.

David
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#668  Postby Dudely » Jun 10, 2010 11:01 pm

DST70 wrote:
Huh?


anecdotal evidence is no substitute for actual peer reviewed scientific analysis


What I was trying to say is that personal testimony covers a huge range of experience. There's the kind of reporting that you can correct with reference to an error in perception/memory e.g. eyewitness testimony. But there's also more direct and intimate first person accounting that's not always easily explained with reference to generalised data.

It counts as weak evidence though in the sense that the scientific data is not supportive. So there's a discrepancy between the two types, at least it seems to me. The placebo effect is obviously not always plausible to many of those with certain strong cases of non-scientific testimony.

David


There are a few problems with that kind of thinking.

There is no reason why a very convincing, unexplained event is proof of anything. It could very well be a fluke or a mistake. The ONLY things that matters are those that you can repeat- if I said there were gnomes in my garden you would expect that you could come over and see them yourself- if you can't then what's to say I'm not lying, crazy, or simply mistaken?

The most convincing and bizarre personal experience in the world is still not proof or even evidence. Sometimes, however, it can be a very good clue to something that that could be proven, or evidence that has yet to be found. But without that evidence it is no better than claiming the moon is made of cheese.

So in regards to medicine it doesn't matter who says they were cured by some strange means, how convincing their experience was, or even their reasoning for why it happened. What matter is if it can be repeated.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#669  Postby tytalus » Jun 10, 2010 11:32 pm

After reading this thread for awhile, I ended up doing some more research for a blog post on it, and I found out something interesting about the term allopathy. It's amusing to consider that homeopaths may have been carrying on an insult against conventional medicine for so long that its effect has been diluted to the point of being harmless -- as I've seen some skeptics using the term here.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#670  Postby Shrunk » Jun 11, 2010 1:01 am

DST70 wrote:
Huh?


anecdotal evidence is no substitute for actual peer reviewed scientific analysis


What I was trying to say is that personal testimony covers a huge range of experience. There's the kind of reporting that you can correct with reference to an error in perception/memory e.g. eyewitness testimony. But there's also more direct and intimate first person accounting that's not always easily explained with reference to generalised data.

It counts as weak evidence though in the sense that the scientific data is not supportive. So there's a discrepancy between the two types, at least it seems to me. The placebo effect is obviously not always plausible to many of those with certain strong cases of non-scientific testimony.

David


Overwhelmingly convincing personal experience told us the earth was flat. Science told us it was spherical. Which was more reliable?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#671  Postby Mr P » Jun 11, 2010 6:44 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Moridin wrote:Dr. Nancy Malik, please define, in your own words, the concept of "entanglement", "Semiotic", and "EPR paradox". No cheating.


Macro-Entanglement between Patient, Practitioner and remedy (PPR)
Entanglement means non-local.

Remedy interacts with prover (human) to produce symptoms. Prover can not be removed from the relationship equation.They are entangled (linked) to each other.

analogy: in a modulated signal, message signal and carrier signal are entangled.

Entanglement ensures one will affect the other

Homeopath practitioner acts as the mirror of the patient with the aim of leading to/providing curative remedy for the patient.

I'd like to dwell on the quantum issue if I may.

How is the entanglement between doctor and patient established?

How are multiple systems of entanglement established?

How are these non-local relationships maintained in light of decoherence? (remember we're dealing with an increase in entropy at this point).
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#672  Postby Dudely » Jun 11, 2010 10:54 am

Shrunk wrote:
Science told us it was spherical.


And, later, an oblate spheroid.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#673  Postby Paul G » Jun 11, 2010 10:56 am

DST70 wrote:
Paul G wrote:Cheers, I'm sure you'll have realised there's all sorts of supposed treatments available. Some just advocating dietry changes to rather, ahem, exotic and expensive treatments.


Yes, although it's been a while since I kept up to date with medical thinking. I'd have to go back to the early 90s to say what the picture was then - mostly a lot of confusion and uncertainty. I hope things have progressed a bit since then?


Progressed definitely, but there's still an amount of general ignorance, even amongst medical professionals in some cases.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#674  Postby Shrunk » Jun 11, 2010 11:19 am

Dudely wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
Science told us it was spherical.


And, later, an oblate spheroid.


I knew someone would do that! :mrgreen:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#675  Postby DST70 » Jun 11, 2010 4:29 pm

Dudely wrote:There are a few problems with that kind of thinking.

There is no reason why a very convincing, unexplained event is proof of anything. It could very well be a fluke or a mistake. The ONLY things that matters are those that you can repeat- if I said there were gnomes in my garden you would expect that you could come over and see them yourself- if you can't then what's to say I'm not lying, crazy, or simply mistaken?

The most convincing and bizarre personal experience in the world is still not proof or even evidence. Sometimes, however, it can be a very good clue to something that that could be proven, or evidence that has yet to be found. But without that evidence it is no better than claiming the moon is made of cheese.

So in regards to medicine it doesn't matter who says they were cured by some strange means, how convincing their experience was, or even their reasoning for why it happened. What matter is if it can be repeated.


Hi, I would agree with you in most cases that that's common sense. But what do you do in cases where it isn't so easy to pop over to someone else's garden to confirm or otherwise?

I think it's useful also to recognise that those criteria are most important to the professional community but maybe less so to others. Non-repeatability obviously raises problems for scientific acceptance. But if you're ill and suffering, a one-off cure would still be pretty welcome, fluke or not.

Overwhelmingly convincing personal experience told us the earth was flat. Science told us it was spherical. Which was more reliable?


Science was. But examining and validating experience is not as straightforward as pointing to ships disappearing on the horizon. Obviously science is not uniformly comprehensive at telling us what's going on, solely by being 'science'.

Just some thoughts.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#676  Postby DST70 » Jun 11, 2010 4:40 pm

Paul G wrote:
DST70 wrote:
Paul G wrote:Cheers, I'm sure you'll have realised there's all sorts of supposed treatments available. Some just advocating dietry changes to rather, ahem, exotic and expensive treatments.


Yes, although it's been a while since I kept up to date with medical thinking. I'd have to go back to the early 90s to say what the picture was then - mostly a lot of confusion and uncertainty. I hope things have progressed a bit since then?


Progressed definitely, but there's still an amount of general ignorance, even amongst medical professionals in some cases.


Yes, it's hard to know what to do when all the advice is conflicting, and you just want a straight solution. Frustrating indeed.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#677  Postby Shrunk » Jun 11, 2010 5:04 pm

DST70 wrote:Science was. But examining and validating experience is not as straightforward as pointing to ships disappearing on the horizon. Obviously science is not uniformly comprehensive at telling us what's going on, solely by being 'science'.


I won't disagree with that. However, WRT to the specific question under discussion here: "Does homeopathy provide any therapeutic effects beyond that produced by placebo?" That type of question is one that is eminently suited to being answered by the scientific method, In fact, it can only be answered by that method. And the answer is a clear "No."
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#678  Postby natselrox » Jun 11, 2010 7:54 pm

From here

Police are advising the public and in particular the vulnerable or elderly, about telephone calls which are being received from a private company asking if the patient was on medication. The caller stated that he was 'undertaking a Government survey' and said that 'doctors prescribed too many medicines', he also said that the 'Government felt too much is spent on prescriptions'.
The caller said that the Government wanted to encourage the take up of homeopathic medicine, however he said that the patient should not discuss the call with their GP as GPs don't approve of the use of homeopathic medicines.
He also said that a consultant would ring every 20 days to check how the patient was getting on with the homeopathic medicine. The cost of these medicines is approximately £30 a day.
Other similar calls offering homeopathic medicines for sale have been received by elderly residents in Lincolnshire and people should ensure their friends and relatives are aware of this.
Detective Sergeant Ian Jarman, Head of Lincolnshire Police Economic Crime Unit states that "people should be aware of these callers, as the Government is not undertaking any survey and patients should not alter any of their medications without consultation with their GP. Clearly if people wish to use complementary medicines, this should be based on individual choice and not pressurised by telephone sales."
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#679  Postby stijndeloose » Jun 11, 2010 8:11 pm

natselrox wrote:From here

Police are advising the public and in particular the vulnerable or elderly, about telephone calls which are being received from a private company asking if the patient was on medication. The caller stated that he was 'undertaking a Government survey' and said that 'doctors prescribed too many medicines', he also said that the 'Government felt too much is spent on prescriptions'.
The caller said that the Government wanted to encourage the take up of homeopathic medicine, however he said that the patient should not discuss the call with their GP as GPs don't approve of the use of homeopathic medicines.
He also said that a consultant would ring every 20 days to check how the patient was getting on with the homeopathic medicine. The cost of these medicines is approximately £30 a day.
Other similar calls offering homeopathic medicines for sale have been received by elderly residents in Lincolnshire and people should ensure their friends and relatives are aware of this.
Detective Sergeant Ian Jarman, Head of Lincolnshire Police Economic Crime Unit states that "people should be aware of these callers, as the Government is not undertaking any survey and patients should not alter any of their medications without consultation with their GP. Clearly if people wish to use complementary medicines, this should be based on individual choice and not pressurised by telephone sales."


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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#680  Postby TMB » Jun 12, 2010 7:15 am

Shrunk wrote:
DST70 wrote:
Huh?


anecdotal evidence is no substitute for actual peer reviewed scientific analysis


What I was trying to say is that personal testimony covers a huge range of experience. There's the kind of reporting that you can correct with reference to an error in perception/memory e.g. eyewitness testimony. But there's also more direct and intimate first person accounting that's not always easily explained with reference to generalised data.

It counts as weak evidence though in the sense that the scientific data is not supportive. So there's a discrepancy between the two types, at least it seems to me. The placebo effect is obviously not always plausible to many of those with certain strong cases of non-scientific testimony.

David


Overwhelmingly convincing personal experience told us the earth was flat. Science told us it was spherical. Which was more reliable?


Actually what passed as science of the time, told us it was flat and we all wnt along with it without needing personal validation of the data. Then science told us it was a speher, and once again we went along with what we wer told because we are good at absorbing social opinions. Once again we did not rely upon personal validation of the primary data. Have a look at the other threads on this forum, and all the peole who belive in evolution (ie. science) who have no idea what it actually is in principle and certainly no direct validation of the evidence - this makes it hearsay.

My point is that scientific method might be a good system, but people stil rely upon hearsay to form opinions. Medical science (allopathy) has changed mostly because of pressure caused by ineffective or destructive remedies. We can only wait to see just what fallout there is with the use of antibiotics (we have some inkling, vaccinations because the weight of conventional wisdom is that rules us, not scientific method.
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