The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

Homeopathy, Chiropractic and similar "alternative" views

Discussions on astrology, homeopathy and superstition etc.

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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#901  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 6:14 pm

GenesForLife wrote:One more assertion, demonstrate why your assertion in factually correct please, I'm not holding my breath.


One of the earliest double blind studies concerning homeopathy was sponsored by the British government during World War II in which volunteers tested the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies against diluted mustard gas burns

Reference: "Report on mustard gas experiments", Br Homeopath J (British Homoeopathic Society) 33 (1): 12, 1943

Conventional medicine adopted it only in 1960's
Evidence-based scientific homeopathy is a modern nano-medicine like Conventional Allopathic Medicine (CAM)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#902  Postby Shrunk » Jun 21, 2010 6:28 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
GenesForLife wrote:One more assertion, demonstrate why your assertion in factually correct please, I'm not holding my breath.


One of the earliest double blind studies concerning homeopathy was sponsored by the British government during World War II in which volunteers tested the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies against diluted mustard gas burns

Reference: "Report on mustard gas experiments", Br Homeopath J (British Homoeopathic Society) 33 (1): 12, 1943

Conventional medicine adopted it only in 1960's


Actually, for once you're not spouting pure bullshit, although you still don't get your facts quite right.

The earliest RDBCT is often claimed to be the "Nuremberg Salt Test" from 1835, and as it happens was an investigation of homeopathy.

Its conclusion? Homeopathy is no more effective than placebo. Plus ca change...
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#903  Postby OHSU » Jun 21, 2010 6:47 pm

Dudely wrote: If I claimed I could cure people by talking to them on the phone and attempted to do so thousands of times (or, hell, even a half dozen) I would have a great many successes. There would be many people completely convinced and ready to back up my powers with the greatest of conviction. I could even cure powerful diseases like cancer and HIV, since there have been cases where those diseases go away randomly on their own for no apparent reason. If I "treated" someone right before that happened then it would appear to be my doing. Yet none of this is evidence and, most importantly, none of this makes my claim even INTERESTING to those who understand what's at work. I'd just be some random guy spouting bullshit and ripping people off (Oh I would charge of course. Can't let such a gift go to waste). Such things are common.


It's interesting you should bring that up.

My favorite of all the discoveries of homeopathic *ahem* scientists is the one by Jacques Benveniste wherein he found that the curative properties of homeopathic preparations could be transmitted over the telephone. I believe this is the paper wherein he described that miraculous effect.

Benveniste, Jacques, J. Aïssa, P. Jurgens and W. Hsueh. “Transatlantic transfer of digitized Antigen signaling at high dilution.” FASEB Journal A602 (1993)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#904  Postby RPizzle » Jun 21, 2010 6:50 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Homeopathy medicine works at the energy level and is much more faster and safer. It needs a different mind set to understand homeopathy where as a materialistic mind can easily grasp conventional because its healing system basically hovers around the body and the organs and its dissection, anatomy and physiology. It does not take the mind, the thoughts, the emotions, its consciousness, its dreams, its waking, sleeping, into consideration while treating the body.

The body is all they see, the body is all they treat, and the body is all they cut into pieces ultimately and once nothing is left behind for surgery, look upto homeopathy to heal.


How does one measure this "energy level"? Is there any way to test for it? I mean if you are manipulating energy and all to treat someone, how do you know you aren't using too much or too little? Actually now that I think about it, this sounds a lot like Reiki.

Sometimes I wonder why I'm an allopathic pre-med student...I could have magic hands. :grin:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#905  Postby Shrunk » Jun 21, 2010 6:53 pm

OHSU wrote:It's interesting you should bring that up.

My favorite of all the discoveries of homeopathic *ahem* scientists is the one by Jacques Benveniste wherein he found that the curative properties of homeopathic preparations could be transmitted over the telephone. I believe this is the paper wherein he described that miraculous effect.

Benveniste, Jacques, J. Aïssa, P. Jurgens and W. Hsueh. “Transatlantic transfer of digitized Antigen signaling at high dilution.” FASEB Journal A602 (1993)


So this must be where that audio tweak company got the idea. PT Barnum would be proud.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#906  Postby OHSU » Jun 21, 2010 7:02 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:Homeopathy medicine works at the energy level and is much more faster and safer.


What evidence can you present that humans have an "energy level"? Is there some kind of device that measures our "energy"? Energy exists in various forms, such as heat, electricity, kinetic energy, etc. In what form do humans store "energy", and how can you access it directly to treat it?

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:It does not take the mind, the thoughts, the emotions, its consciousness, its dreams, its waking, sleeping, into consideration while treating the body.


Are you saying that homeopathic remedies treat thoughts, emotions, consciousness, dreams, etc?

How?


Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:The body is all they see, the body is all they treat...


And what do you see? How do you see it, exactly?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#907  Postby gilthanass » Jun 21, 2010 7:54 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
OHSU wrote:
Is the value of a substance as a curative agent not tied to its chemical and physical properties? How is it, then, that substances that are made into homeopathic preparations become chemically and physically indistinguishable from water in every single way, yet still retain the ability to cure illness? Doesn't it seem just a little bit odd that for hundreds or thousands of completely unrelated substances, the property related to treating disease is precisely the quality (and the ONLY quality) that happens to be retained when diluted in water, and that for each of the hundreds or thousands of substances in question, that special property that makes the substance curative is not otherwise detectable via any means? That seems like quite a coincidence to me.

If water retained some but not all the physical or chemical properties of diluted substances, doesn't it seem likely that different substances would behave differently? For example, doesn't it seem that certain substances would totally lose whatever property it is that makes them useful for treating disease, but they'd retain their color, while for other substances it might be smell, and others their flammability? It just seems really strange and not a little suspicious to me that all substances should lose all their properties, and become completely indistinguishable from pure water except for whatever property they have that makes them curative.

Can someone knowledgeable in homeopathy explain the chemical or physical mechanism of that to me?


Many experiments have been conducted in the more remote past as well as re-cently, to at least prove the existence of something in our potencies, of which I will give some examples here.

1. In 1948, Wormser and Loch tested several substances from 24X to 30X. They used a photoelectric cell, to measure the intensity and wavelength of these potencies and found measurable changes, of both intensity and wave-length in these substances.

2. In the years 1951-3, Gay and Boiron tested both distilled water and Natrum muriaticum in the 27C potency for their dielectric constant. They were able to show that the potency of Natrum mur. could be easily selec-ted from among 99 control bottles.

3. In 1963, Boericke and Smith tested a 12X potency of Sulphur, with and without succussion. They tested the solvent structure by nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum. They found that there were structural changes in the solvent, as the potency was increased by succussion, while no such change was detected in the controls. They repeated the experiment in 1974, with diverse potencies of Sulphur, up to the 30C.

4. In 1966, Stephenson and Brucato tested both distilled water and Mercu-rius corrosivus, from the 1X to the 33X. They found that the dielectric constant for the controls varied from 5.6 to 6.05. For the homoeopathic potencies it varied from 2.8 to 4.4.

5. In 1975, Young tested Sulphur from 5X to 30X, with controls. He also tested the solvent structure by nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum. He found that there were measurable changes in the spectra at each dilution and succussion. No such changes were observed for the solution without succussion or without Sulphur.

6. In 1976, Boiron and Vinh used Raman Laser Spectroscopy, showing that for the 1C potency of Kali bichromicum the spectrum of alcohol disap-pears completely, while that for potassium bichromate appears. In Kali bich 1C the ratio of the number of potassium bichromate molecules is 1 to 500. In such a case the light meets 500 more alcohol molecules as those of bichromate, yet the alcohol spectrum does not appear.

7. In 1982, Resch, Gutman and Schauer found that dilute sodium chloride solutions revealed an increase in electrical conductivity, by rocking them prior to measurement.

8. Four French researchers developed a method of detection through nu-clear magnetic resonance, conducted in the late 80's, which shows spe-cific sinus waves for each potency, as well as a specific sinus wave for the substance used. These latter remain the same throughout all poten-cies of that substance, while the sinus wave expressing the potencies, are specific to those potencies. Thus a clear and recognisable scientifi-cally provable frame of reference exists, for each remedy and potency.

9. More recent NMR studies have reached similar conclusions (Demangeat et al., 1992; Weingärtner, 1992).

10. Recent experiments with Raman Laser Spectrography have shown that a 1M potency (1 divided by 100 to the –1000th power) of Kali bichromicum reveal the spectrum of Kali bichromicum and not that of water. It must be realized that there are supposedly no molecules of Kali bichromicum present in this dilution rate, since it is way beyond Avogadro’s limit, which lies at 1024 or 10012.

11. Another Raman Laser Spectrography test with Natrum muriaticum 10M showed the spectrum of Chloride of sodium, instead that of water. It must be noted that here the dilution rate is a 1000 times smaller still than that of the previous example.

12. Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride (10-30 g/cm-3) have been irradiated by X-rays at 77 K, then progressively rewarmed to room temperature. During that phase, their thermo luminescence has been studied and it was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avo-gadro number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially.

Reference
http://chestjournal.chestpubs.org/conte ... 3/936.full


Perfect! If you recall Nancy, this is exactly what I was asking for many many pages ago, a way to tell the difference between homeopathic remedies and water (and to tell if they had been successed or not). Now, all you have to do is give us the sources of your twelve assertions, and you'll have pretty much delivered on giving us the evidence we wanted! Of course, that all hinges on the fact that your sources are good, that the experiments were carried out with a good experimental design, and that they are repeatable. If they are all three of those, physics, prepare to be busted wide open!

Why do I get the feeling this is not going to be the case? Oh well, I remain open minded. Sure, I think homeopathy is hogwash now, but if you provide sufficient evidence to the contrary, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.

Edit: Of course, to be perfectly fair (and so I can't be accused of moving the goalposts) if you do provide the evidence I ask for, it doesn't actually prove homeopathy effective for medical treatment, all it would do is prove that water has a memory, and successing it affects that memory (of course, that would be groundbreaking enough).
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#908  Postby OHSU » Jun 21, 2010 8:03 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote: Many experiments have been conducted in the more remote past as well as re-cently, to at least prove the existence of something in our potencies, of which I will give some examples here.

...

http://chestjournal.chestpubs.org/conte ... 3/936.full


And what peer-reviewed, neutral, scientific journal were those published in?

See, the thing is that for several years James Randi offered $1,000,000 to anyone who could demonstrate a difference between a homeopathic preparation and pure water using any method they wanted, and nobody was able to. In fact, I don't believe anyone even bothered to try.

If so many devices demonstrate a difference, why didn't some homeopath somewhere show up and claim the money?

Could it be that the difference is only observable and demonstrable to other believers (and hence, only publishable in homeopathy publications)?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#909  Postby MedGen » Jun 21, 2010 8:35 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
A homeopath physician during case taking tries to know the make-up of a patient. Genetic code genome is responsible for what's going to constitute the resulting individual. This code map is responsible for

1. Structure/built/looks of an individual
2. nature.emotions, senstivity, reactions of an individual
3. tolerance to external factors like heat, cold, sun, wind, sound, light
4. desires, aversions, thirst, appetite
5. peculiar symptoms

When a homeopath physician takes all these above for prescribing a medicine, it becomes a genetic constitutional simillimum


What utter bullshit. You want to invoke genetics? Then you need to show you understand the complex interactions that lead from genotype to phenotype, not continue with this nonsenscial bollocks you've been spouting for the last 40+ pages. Symptoms are the outward physcial manifestations of a disease or disorder dictated by ones genetic make-up and environmental interactions. People have different genotypes and experience different environments which interact to influence their susceptibility to a given disease. Conventional medicine does not aim to target the symptoms, it aims to target the exact molecular mechanisms of a disease. Let's take into account your attempt at using arthritis as an example, specifically rheumatoid arthritis (you mentioned rheumatoid factor, so I guess this is what you meant, rather than the polyarthritis of systemic lupus erythematosus, undifferentiated arthritis, osteoarthritis or juvenile idiopathic arthritis - or do homeopaths not understand that even RA can be sub-classified based on RF and ACPA status?).

Conventional treatments for RA target the cellular basis of the disease through the use of methotrexate to limit cell division, and they target the pharmacologically active biomolecules responsible for the inflammatory damage in RA - tumour necrosis factor alpha (TNF-alpha). In addition there are other biologic therapies that target other pro-inflammatory molecules and have been used succesfully to treat RA for the last 10-15 years. All of these therapies have been used to target the specific molecular mechanisms behind disease causation, not the symptoms themselves.

So once again your "conventional medicine only aims to treat the symptoms" bullshit is in contention with observational reality. In addition, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, none of this provides evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy, nor have you provided rigorous evidential support for the conclusions homeopathy has been making up for the last 200 years.

In short homeopathy is bullshit, because it is only fucking water!
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#910  Postby Paul » Jun 21, 2010 8:45 pm

OHSU wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote: Many experiments have been conducted in the more remote past as well as re-cently, to at least prove the existence of something in our potencies, of which I will give some examples here.

...

http://chestjournal.chestpubs.org/conte ... 3/936.full


And what peer-reviewed, neutral, scientific journal were those published in?


Well, as that list from Nancy appears to be exactly the same as a list contained in this post on another forum from October 2008, I suspect that answers regarding which peer-reviewed journals they were published in may not be forthcoming.

Is this what passes for reliable reference material in your opinion Nancy? Anonymous postings on interweb forums.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#911  Postby TMB » Jun 21, 2010 11:33 pm

Dudely wrote:How does any of this help the argument for homeopathy?


How does this even qualify as a response to my original comment? The argument in this thread is a lot more that stating the case for homeopathy. If you are unable to provide a valid position for what I stated, then at least do so, rather than just abdicating.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#912  Postby Mr.Samsa » Jun 22, 2010 2:27 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
DST70 wrote:
Paul wrote:So in other words homoeopathy can't be validated in any way? We just have to have "faith"?


I don't see a way to validate any mechanism of homeopathy within current understanding of the physical sciences. I think it's logically and empirically possible to validate the efficacy of a homeopathic remedy, but not without considerable shifts in the viewpoint of medicine. Can't see it happening for a while, but who knows what the future holds?

Is faith really the only thing you're left with after all this?


I can think of two ways to do it, and there are probably more.

1. Find a group of patients who all need the same remedy, and then either give them the remedy or a placebo -- double blind.

2. Have a homeopath prescribe an individual remedy for each patient, and have an assistant decide who gets the remedy and who gets the placebo.


Okay, now I'm really fucking confused.

Number 2, as you've presented here, is the standard method for assessing homeopathic claims in the literature. And since Dr Shrunk and others have linked you to these studies (which I'm presuming you've read), then surely you accept that homeopathy is useless since homeopathy consistently fails in the test you yourself have admitted to being a valid test of homeopathy efficacy.

It seems to me, Ms Malik, that you have absolutely no idea what a placebo or an RCT actually is. A randomised controlled trial can be conducted with individualized treatments. We don't need to give all the subjects the same treatment, they don't even need to have the same disease/symptoms.

This really is the end of the thread. The homeopath has admitted that the RCT's that show no effect of homeopathy are accurate ways of measuring the effect of homeopathy.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#913  Postby natselrox » Jun 22, 2010 3:17 am

:popcorn:

(This popcorn won't make you fat because, you know, I sell it)
When in perplexity, read on.

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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#914  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 22, 2010 4:23 am

DST70 wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
DST70 wrote: *snip*


Dr.Syed Ahmed (SFA) have an example to illustrate this

1- Hot days, loose motions, water, several times a day with pains. (call it diarrhea).
2- Hot days, loose motions with severe cramps coming in waves.(call it diarrhea too).
3- Travelling man, never without watery stools that want him to rush to the utility. (diarrhea again)

Now for an effective homeopath, it never mattered to call it diarrhea or xyz. As the symptoms are varying to an extent that the remedies are changing - every condition must have been different is some respect.

Carefully selected remedy would clear the complaint quickly.


Thanks Nancy. This is a useful point to illustrate cases where the disease state is not best viewed as a single discrete entity, which presents problems for a reductionist science.


For the Homeopath , disease is not pathology , but a state of being. Absence of organic pathology does not mean absence of disease. Experience shows that all beings have a state inside , which is a precursor to organic pathology, besides being a cause for dis- ease within the person.
Evidence-based scientific homeopathy is a modern nano-medicine like Conventional Allopathic Medicine (CAM)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#915  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 22, 2010 4:27 am

Shrunk wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
Save Taxpayer $$$: Eliminate Alternative Medicine Research

Steven Salzberg
Forbes.com
June 16, 2010


This past week, President Obama called on all federal agencies to voluntarily propose budget cuts of 5%. Well, Mr. President, you might be surprised to learn that there's a way for you that cut the National Institutes of Health budget without hurting biomedical research. In fact, it will help..... (SNIP)


Status of CAM in USA

U.S. Census data reported that in the preceding three years, total spending for alternative care grew by 83%, from $10.3 billion in 1987 to $18.9 billion in 1990, while total expenditures paid to mainstream physicians increased by 56%, from $90 billion to $141 billion. Not since President Nixon brought acupuncture back from China has interest in alternative medicine been so great. (SNIP)


1) Quoted without citation. Reported.



Reposted with references

U.S. Census data reported that in the preceding three years, total spending for alternative care grew by 83%, from $10.3 billion in 1987 to $18.9 billion in 1990, while total expenditures paid to mainstream physicians increased by 56%, from $90 billion to $141 billion. Not since President Nixon brought acupuncture back from China has interest in alternative medicine been so great.

Utilization went up from 33.8% of the American public in 1990 to well over 50% in 1998. There were 427 million CAM visits in 1990, and that number increased to over 629 million in 1997, a 47.3% increase in just seven years! Spending for CAM therapies, including nutritional and botanical/herbal supplements in 1998, totaled $18 billion OUT-OF-POCKET! Overall CAM patient satisfaction rates are greater than 75%. And if that's not enough, perhaps this is the clincher: current CAM visits far outnumber visits to any and all primary care physicians 2.1:1.

Jan 28, 1993 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source ... WN95QIc8aQ
http://dynamicdr.net/income.html
http://healthy-and-happy01.blogspot.com ... -came.html

A follow-up study published in the November 11, 1998 issue of the Journal of the AMA reported a 47.3% increase in visits to alternative medicine practitioners, from 427 million in 1990 to 629 million in 1997 - a number that exceeded total visits to all US primary care physicians.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/ab ... 80/18/1569

A federally funded survey in 2007 found that in the previous year nearly 5 million Americans used homeopathic remedies

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02456.html

U.S. adults spent $33.9 billion out-of-pocket on visits to complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) practitioners and purchases of CAM products, classes, and materials.

http://nccam.nih.gov/news/camstats/costs/
Evidence-based scientific homeopathy is a modern nano-medicine like Conventional Allopathic Medicine (CAM)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#916  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 22, 2010 4:31 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
DST70 wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
DST70 wrote: *snip*


Dr.Syed Ahmed (SFA) have an example to illustrate this

1- Hot days, loose motions, water, several times a day with pains. (call it diarrhea).
2- Hot days, loose motions with severe cramps coming in waves.(call it diarrhea too).
3- Travelling man, never without watery stools that want him to rush to the utility. (diarrhea again)

Now for an effective homeopath, it never mattered to call it diarrhea or xyz. As the symptoms are varying to an extent that the remedies are changing - every condition must have been different is some respect.

Carefully selected remedy would clear the complaint quickly.


Thanks Nancy. This is a useful point to illustrate cases where the disease state is not best viewed as a single discrete entity, which presents problems for a reductionist science.


For the Homeopath , disease is not pathology , but a state of being. Absence of organic pathology does not mean absence of disease. Experience shows that all beings have a state inside , which is a precursor to organic pathology, besides being a cause for dis- ease within the person.


“An important aspect of many concepts of disease has been the tendency to ascribe disease to a “bad” influence, usually something external which gets into the body. This theme characterizes most primitive and pre- scientific views of disease and has reappeared in various guises in the scientific era.”

Engel; Perspectives in Biology and Medicine
Evidence-based scientific homeopathy is a modern nano-medicine like Conventional Allopathic Medicine (CAM)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#917  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 22, 2010 4:44 am

OHSU wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:It does not take the mind, the thoughts, the emotions, its consciousness, its dreams, its waking, sleeping, into consideration while treating the body.


Are you saying that homeopathic remedies treat thoughts, emotions, consciousness, dreams, etc?

How?

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:The body is all they see, the body is all they treat...


And what do you see? How do you see it, exactly?


Secretions of neurotransmiters, either increase or decrease in their value affect the mood, nature and behaviour of an individual, which result in anger and fear (adrenaline), depression and sadness (serotonin, epinephrine).

That's why in homeopathy during case analysis, a patient is asked about it's nature, behaviour, emotions, anger, etc. because it directly affects the person in picture. It would be adamancy on the part of conventional medicine (with the exception of psychiatry) by just sticking to just physical symptoms of the patient. They are tamering the homoeostasis at local biochemic level. This upsets the homoeostasis further in depper tissues and transfers the toxins to higher to cause disease suppression
Evidence-based scientific homeopathy is a modern nano-medicine like Conventional Allopathic Medicine (CAM)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#918  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 22, 2010 4:58 am

MedGen wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
A homeopath physician during case taking tries to know the make-up of a patient. Genetic code genome is responsible for what's going to constitute the resulting individual. This code map is responsible for

1. Structure/built/looks of an individual
2. nature.emotions, senstivity, reactions of an individual
3. tolerance to external factors like heat, cold, sun, wind, sound, light
4. desires, aversions, thirst, appetite
5. peculiar symptoms

When a homeopath physician takes all these above for prescribing a medicine, it becomes a genetic constitutional simillimum


What utter bullshit. You want to invoke genetics? Then you need to show you understand the complex interactions that lead from genotype to phenotype, not continue with this nonsenscial bollocks you've been spouting for the last 40+ pages. Symptoms are the outward physcial manifestations of a disease or disorder dictated by ones genetic make-up and environmental interactions. People have different genotypes and experience different environments which interact to influence their susceptibility to a given disease.


As we all know from the books of genetics, immunology and physiology that proteins synthesized by various cells play a major role in establishing a homoeostatic equilibrium in the milleu interior as well as milleu exterior.

This equilibrium (in which the proteins play a important part as either a catalyst or an active chemical member of the reactions) ultimately contributes to the resultant immunity. Thus, immunity is protein dependent. If immunity ever can be disturbed it can be only due to ' PROTIEN' factor .One has to now understand the conditions which shall increase or decrease these ' proteins' and thereby disturb the 'immunity' and cause immune impairment leading to disease.

Conditions leading to disturbed 'Protein Factor' are:

Emotions: Homoeopaths know that emotional upset causes diseases. 'Ailments from' is one of the most important factor considered by us in solving cases. Moreover, what happens at biological level is least understood.

Emotions like anger, hate, grief, shock, indignation, jealousy, loss of position, loss of loved ones, business failures etc are known to be a cause of disturbed secretions of neurotransmitters like Adrenaline, Serotinin, epinephrine, non- epinephrine, dopamine etc. These neurotransmitters are essentially amino- acid based proteinous enzymes. These are almost certainly going to upset the protein factor in the equilibrium. These are therefore a chief cause in impaired immunity leading to any disease.

Artificial increases in Immunoglobulins (proteins) by Vaccinations are second major cause of immune impairment. This is the chief cause of disease syndrome beginning in infancy.

Antibiotics, which kill 'bacteria', result in animal protein or toxins being liberated in the lumen, which are absorbed into the system thereby upsetting the Homeostasis Equilibrium or health.

Quoted from National Journal of homeopathy 2000 Sept / Oct VOL II NO 5. by Dr Praful Vijaykar (predictive homeopathy)
http://www.njhonline.com/2000/sep_oct_v ... edy2.shtml
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#919  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 22, 2010 5:35 am

Shrunk wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
GenesForLife wrote:One more assertion, demonstrate why your assertion in factually correct please, I'm not holding my breath.


One of the earliest double blind studies concerning homeopathy was sponsored by the British government during World War II in which volunteers tested the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies against diluted mustard gas burns

Reference: "Report on mustard gas experiments", Br Homeopath J (British Homoeopathic Society) 33 (1): 12, 1943

Conventional medicine adopted it only in 1960's


Actually, for once you're not spouting pure bullshit, although you still don't get your facts quite right.

The earliest RDBCT is often claimed to be the "Nuremberg Salt Test" from 1835, and as it happens was an investigation of homeopathy.

Its conclusion? Homeopathy is no more effective than placebo. Plus ca change...


Thanks for enlightening me with the fact of 'the earliest' randomised double blind trial in history (1835) conducted by Johann Jacob Reuter, a homeopath physician. I knew trial of 1943 was not the first one that's why I put up in bold "One of the earliest" not the "earliest"
Evidence-based scientific homeopathy is a modern nano-medicine like Conventional Allopathic Medicine (CAM)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#920  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 22, 2010 6:14 am

Shrunk wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Homeopathy medicine for various disease conditions http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/research ... dence.html


Just noticed something on that page (my emphasis:)

Listed below are medical conditions where positive findings for homeopathy have been reported in at least one systematic review, randomised controlled trial (RCT) or non-randomised study.

Download full list of references for all conditions: Clinical research evidence in favour of homeopathy (7 pages). For more complete details of the research, visit the research section of the Faculty of Homeopathy's website, which includes details of those RCTs that were either negative or non-conclusive.


The entire body of research supposedly supporting homeopathy, for every single condition for which they claim efficacy mind your, can fit on a mere 7 pages. And that includes "non-randomized studies." :dopey:

This is assuming that those studies actually support homeopathy which, as we have seen, if far from a safe assumption.


those seven pages lists only references not the paper itself http://bit.ly/di7aIL
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