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tnjrp wrote:In the spirit of celebrating one of the biggest holidays of the year in Finland, Juhannus (that is, Midsummer Day), I present for your delicate perusal the rather against-Finnish-mainstream-physics alternative explanation for the functioning of universe, consciousness and pretty much everything... In other words, perhaps the longest running (the author's been at it for more than quarter of a century!) and most scientifically heavy weight local contender for the lofty position of Alternative Theory of Everything.
Ladies, gentlemen and assorted other forumites... Topological Geometrodynamics by Matti Pitkänen.
Should keep the mathematically inclined folks busy for day or two


tnjrp wrote:Based on what I've understood and read about Pitkänen indicates he's made up a mathematically consistent model of the world that unfortunately (given the effort) appears to have a rather tenous, possibly incidental relationship with our observable reality*.
In other words, TGd's rather much ado about practically nothing.
But I'm not a mathematigian so I accept the possibility I could be wrong on one or both counts.
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Darkchilde wrote:Sorry Brain Man, but did you really look at that book?
For one, it contains articles that have not passed peer review. Pitkanen's article is one of them. In fact, there are very few articles contained there that have gone through peer review. The problem is that those articles were not written specifically for that book, so, in this case, peer review matters.
Secondly, 90% of Pitkanen's references are his own work! And of those that aren't most have not been published and have not passed peer-review.
That book looks fishy. I cannot find it in print, seems that it exists only on Google Books or online. And one of the authors seems to have a record for fringe hypothesis. Read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_in_Physics
http://www.mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de/~bruhn/toRabounski030508.html


Indeed he is. Has a Phd in physics as I recall.twistor59 wrote:I believe Pitkanen has a bona fide mathematical physics training/educational background.
Quite. It's also almost completely intractable for anyone not well versed in mathematics. As I said above, I've tried to read some of it but can't make out if all of that calculation, solid as it is in and of itself, really has anything to do with the real, observable world as Pitkänen claims. An actual matematician who has looked at his work seemed to be pretty much in agreement.I don't think I'd be 100% confident in labelling him as a pseudoscientist, it's just that his work is so extremely left-field, it's impossible for mere mortals to penetrate.


tnjrp wrote:Indeed he is. Has a Phd in physics as I recall.twistor59 wrote:I believe Pitkanen has a bona fide mathematical physics training/educational background.Quite. It's also almost completely intractable for anyone not well versed in mathematics. As I said above, I've tried to read some of it but can't make out if all of that calculation, solid as it is in and of itself, really has anything to do with the real, observable world as Pitkänen claims. An actual matematician who has looked at his work seemed to be pretty much in agreement.I don't think I'd be 100% confident in labelling him as a pseudoscientist, it's just that his work is so extremely left-field, it's impossible for mere mortals to penetrate.
Obviously he says he has plently of empirical evidence (other than the Schnoll effect, that is) for his theory but the last time I know when somebody asked he didn't seem to want to present it
It would help his credibility some if he didn't claim outright that his TOE actually solves almost all vexing scientific problems (including but not limited to the subject of consciousness) as well as create a new paradigm in physics.

Well, our mileages apparently vary because AFAIK not all "obsessive mathematicians" are completely convinced they've solved every mystery in the physcial universe in a single swoop, much less throw in questionable fringe claims by the way of evidence for this.Brain man wrote:Obviously he says he has plently of empirical evidence (other than the Schnoll effect, that is) for his theory but the last time I know when somebody asked he didn't seem to want to present it
It would help his credibility some if he didn't claim outright that his TOE actually solves almost all vexing scientific problems (including but not limited to the subject of consciousness) as well as create a new paradigm in physics.
What else is expected ? You have a highly obsessive mathematician with accompanying personality [...] These guys will make those kind of statements. Its is fundamental physics. Matti's work relies on lie algebra and has a resemblance to Garret Lisi's E8 in concept. Of course that kind of work can lead to a fundamental result for everything.
I'm not entirely sure what you are saying here.Unless somebody like this is brought up in a self effacing place like oxford where even knowing the secrets of the universe would register zero outward excitement except a few papers in spare time and clipped statements to summarize.
I put it here yes, because for the reasons outlined above I believe it's where it belongs. It's a mathematical construct attempting to pass for a theory in physics. Am obivously ready to be corrected, but I think this correction should really come by the way of the scientific establishment acknowledging TGd. If you disagree, you can report my post and request this be moved.did the OP put Matti's work here or was it moved ?

tnjrp wrote:Brain man wrote:
Unless somebody like this is brought up in a self effacing place like oxford where even knowing the secrets of the universe would register zero outward excitement except a few papers in spare time and clipped statements to summarize.
I'm not entirely sure what you are saying here.
Unless you agree with Matti's (seeing as you are on first name basis) sometime expressed view he's a victim of purposeful sidelining in the academic circles instead of just (possibly unjustly but not with malign intent) being ignored, he has had ample time to come to the knowledge of the physics world outside of the Finnish academia. It's not like he came up with his theory yesterday, he has published almost all of his work originally in English, he visits physicists' blogs regularly etc. so somebody in the actual physics crowd should aware of him and paying attention even tho he's not tenured at a major university. Are they?
If you are saying he shouldn't need to provide evidence, then I'm frankly quite at loss. It's supposed to be a physics theory. Shouldn't it have evidence specifically in favour of it above other theories from the get-go?
I put it here yes, because for the reasons outlined above I believe it's where it belongs. It's a mathematical construct attempting to pass for a theory in physics. Am obivously ready to be corrected, but I think this correction should really come by the way of the scientific establishment acknowledging TGd. If you disagree, you can report my post and request this be moved.did the OP put Matti's work here or was it moved ?

Sorry I misunderstood what you were implying. It seems it had something to do with where the researcher is schooled and not where he's tenured, if anywhere. I can't really comment on that I'm afraid as I have no experience with more than one university.Brain man wrote:Unless you agree with Matti's (seeing as you are on first name basis) sometime expressed view he's a victim of purposeful sidelining in the academic circles instead of just (possibly unjustly but not with malign intent) being ignored, he has had ample time to come to the knowledge of the physics world outside of the Finnish academia. It's not like he came up with his theory yesterday, he has published almost all of his work originally in English, he visits physicists' blogs regularly etc. so somebody in the actual physics crowd should aware of him and paying attention even tho he's not tenured at a major university. Are they?
sorry i dont get what you are saying about tenure here.
Ok, nice to be in agreement on the principle at least then.If you are saying he shouldn't need to provide evidence, then I'm frankly quite at loss. It's supposed to be a physics theory. Shouldn't it have evidence specifically in favour of it above other theories from the get-go?
Of course not.
You seem to have missed my mentioning that Mr. Pitkänen claims to have specific evidence, not all of it in the nature of his theory being able to explain the likes of the Shnoll effect, telepathy & the like where mainstream physics can't. He just doesn't seem to be very eager to provide it, instead relying on lenghty assertions when not going for "shut up and calculate".How often does evidence come from the get go ? How many of todays accepted ideas are intuitive in origin ? So matti could not finish what he started. So what ?
Of course not. And I never claimed it does.Not everybody can complete every project. Does not make them a pseudo-scientist ?
Bit of an "if" there ATM.if Garret Lisi's geometry approach turns out correct
And another "if" there.then Matti was in the right ballpark and so stands a good chance of becoming referred to by historians as one of the type 1 players if geometric physics becomes a major branch of quantum physics.
So can you explain better than Mr. Pitkänen himself in what way the Surfer Dude's approach converges with TGd? I do believe Pitkänen wrote something about it on his blog when Lisi was in the news but given TGd is rather intractable it's a bit of the case of needing to take him at his word. I could use a clarification and I'm sure other participants would be interested as well.So we are starting to see a convergence occur to these geometric approaches which ought to tell you its not pseudoscience.
We have to disagree there then. I seem him purposefully stepping outside of the bounds of science to bolster his theory while, if TGd does have a core of merit (cannot be completely ruled out), he should very strongly concentrate on expanding on the basic physics aspect of it instead and should be able to do it better than saying that he believes M-theory to be "the worst waste of time in the history of science" or "they haven't found the Higgs boson yet, so there!"And yes in that sense Matti has got too carried away with himself, but thats all it is. Over-enthusiasm.
TGd is an intermittenlty popular subject on Finnish Skeptics board where it's used to bolster fringe claims. This is why I maintain enough interest in it to talk about it with people who actually have a physics or mathematics background. As to why I posted it here specifically, I've already explained it more than once so repeating it again won't do a world of good I suspect.So why did you feel so strongly as to post it here ?
Can you cite, say, two or three examples where a move has been requested but "they" haven't complied? Not that I expect them to just do it at the drop of a hat every time, mind you.I wont report it. They dont move posts out of pseudoscience. Ever (its a political labelling thing)
ORLY? zOMG!Theres examples a plenty here of science with problems, incomplete science, musings, works in progress...
You have the right to your opinion of course, even if you're wrongUsing the label of pseudoscience for these kind of works, which matti's is means you contribute to denigrate the validity of the term pseudoscience.

tnjrp wrote:In the spirit of celebrating one of the biggest holidays of the year in Finland, Juhannus (that is, Midsummer Day), I present for your delicate perusal the rather against-Finnish-mainstream-physics alternative explanation for the functioning of universe, consciousness and pretty much everything... In other words, perhaps the longest running (the author's been at it for more than quarter of a century!) and most scientifically heavy weight local contender for the lofty position of Alternative Theory of Everything.
Ladies, gentlemen and assorted other forumites... Topological Geometrodynamics by Matti Pitkänen.
Should keep the mathematically inclined folks busy for day or two

tnjrp wrote:Unless you agree with Matti's (seeing as you are on first name basis) sometime expressed view he's a victim of purposeful sidelining in the academic circles instead of just (possibly unjustly but not with malign intent) being ignored, he has had ample time to come to the knowledge of the physics world outside of the Finnish academia. It's not like he came up with his theory yesterday, he has published almost all of his work originally in English, he visits physicists' blogs regularly etc. so somebody in the actual physics crowd should aware of him and paying attention even tho he's not tenured at a major university. Are they?
The point I was making is that somebody (other than Mr. Pitkänen himself + a few ardent fans who don't seem to be themselves physicists) should be interested in TGd by now even tho he isn't in the mainstream. It doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can tell.
You seem to have missed my mentioning that Mr. Pitkänen claims to have specific evidence, not all of it in the nature of his theory being able to explain the likes of the Shnoll effect, telepathy & the like where mainstream physics can't. He just doesn't seem to be very eager to provide it, instead relying on lenghty assertions when not going for "shut up and calculate".
So can you explain better than Mr. Pitkänen himself in what way the Surfer Dude's approach converges with TGd? I do believe Pitkänen wrote something about it on his blog when Lisi was in the news but given TGd is rather intractable it's a bit of the case of needing to take him at his word. I could use a clarification and I'm sure other participants would be interested as well.

We have to disagree there then. I seem him purposefully stepping outside of the bounds of science to bolster his theory while, if TGd does have a core of merit (cannot be completely ruled out), he should very strongly concentrate on expanding on the basic physics aspect of it instead and should be able to do it better than saying that he believes M-theory to be "the worst waste of time in the history of science" or "they haven't found the Higgs boson yet, so there!"
TGd is an intermittenlty popular subject on Finnish Skeptics board where it's used to bolster fringe claims. This is why I maintain enough interest in it to talk about it with people who actually have a physics or mathematics background. As to why I posted it here specifically, I've already explained it more than once so repeating it again won't do a world of good I suspect.
Can you cite, say, two or three examples where a move has been requested but "they" haven't complied? Not that I expect them to just do it at the drop of a hat every time, mind you.

tnjrp wrote:
The point I was making is that somebody (other than Mr. Pitkänen himself + a few ardent fans who don't seem to be themselves physicists) should be interested in TGd by now even tho he isn't in the mainstream. It doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can tell.


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