Sendraks wrote:tolman wrote:If not simply trying to select criteria to support one's own emotional conclusions, it's not obvious why 'response to oppression' is the only or major factor someone should use when considering whether pride is justified.
Doesn't this then just become a semantics argument about which word is the most appropriate one to use?
It seems more like you trying to find rationalisations to justify only the kinds of pride you approve of.
Sendraks wrote:The rationale for why the "black pride" movement exists is well documented. If you're suggesting that it is not justified, then feel free to set out your arguments as to why.
Where did I suggest someone else shouldn't feel a particular kind of pride?
Other people are under no obligation to justify their emotions to me, just as I'm under no obligation to justify mine to them
But than it seems that maybe you're talking less about pride (as in the feeling), and more about 'Pride' (as in something akin to a self-esteem support movement).
Not that there's inherently anything wrong with the latter, it's just not the same kind of thing as the former.
Even given your idea of pride being justified by [a group] overcoming adversity, while I may not agree with them, some people presumably could apply
that idea, look at 'white peoples' going out and colonising all manner of (for them) extreme environments and see achievement to be proud of in that, especially if (as many people do) they conveniently ignore or sideline (or are substantially ignorant of) all the negative aspects.
Unless it's only achieving things in the face of adversity
caused by other people which counts.
I also find strange the claim that 'white pride' is simply some kind 'me too' of reaction to 'black pride'.
In terms of 'pride-as-emotion', it's hard to see that standing up.
Even in terms of 'Pride-as-movement', I'm not sure how successfully someone could claim that movements or organisations based significantly on the idea that being white was something to be proud of postdate movements or organisations claiming being black was something to be proud of.
While there may be fundamental differences between the nature and goals of such movements or organisations, given the power and privilege imbalances, possibly historical priority is not a great basis on which to criticise the former, given the more obvious grounds for criticism.
Sendraks wrote:tolman wrote:Were a black second-generation immigrant from Nigeria to
fictional nation where racism isn't still a problem to say they were proud to be black and proud of their Nigerian heritage, would you say the second type of pride 'didn't make sense' because it might use different criteria to the first, and might not even meaningfully draw on oppression as a justification?
F.I.F.Y
No you didn't, you completely fucked it up.
If they were living in a racism-free nation, there would seem to be no justification under
your standards for them being proud to be black, so there wouldn't be a contrast to be explored, which was the whole bloody point of the question.
In the question, I was accepting your justifications would apply to the first type of pride.
I don't do sarcasm smileys, but someone as bright as you has probably figured that out already.