With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#221  Postby Sendraks » Dec 15, 2015 2:10 pm

crank wrote: You only have to look at a few threads here to see how many still actively deny how seriously fucked up the law/legal system/cops/courts/prisons are for minorities, especially blacks..


At lot of that commentary is from individuals who are obsessed with the notion that they are "hard done by" and that anyone else having it worse, is simply a notion they're not prepared to entertain.
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#222  Postby tolman » Dec 15, 2015 3:19 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Nicko wrote:I think the label of "white pride" would be completely fine - well, as fine as "black pride" - for a person of European ancestry to wear were it not for the fact that it has been irrevocably linked with white supremacy.


I think the white supremacy point, while valid, doesn't actually detract from the fact that there is no context for the phrase "white pride" to have meaning. Shorn of the racist connotations, the use of the phrase is little more than a childish entitled rant to the effect of "they have that, I want some to" because some white people think they are missing out. They think that they are hard done by because they don't grasp why "black pride" exists.

While it's not an idea I subscribe to myself, I'd have thought that fundamentally, 'white pride', like much other 'group' pride, comes from the basic idea that someone is for the most part proud of some combination of real and mythologised achievements of other people in the group which they typically personally had little or nothing to do with.

While a significant amount of gay pride or black pride or similar kinds of pride may come from somewhere more personal, such as an individual's struggles against prejudice in their own life, there seems likely to be at least some group element in there somewhere.

Presumably there would types of 'being proud to be black' which wouldn't really come under your definition of 'black pride'.
Were someone 'proud to be black' in a black/arab border region in Africa where neither group was particularly dominant, that would seem a kind of pride with much in common with 'white pride'
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#223  Postby Sendraks » Dec 15, 2015 3:26 pm

tolman wrote:
Were someone 'proud to be black' in a black/arab border region in Africa where neither group was particularly dominant, that would seem a kind of pride with much in common with 'white pride'


Precisely! :thumbup:
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#224  Postby tolman » Dec 15, 2015 3:47 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Nicko wrote:Perhaps you haven't considered that what I'm saying goes both ways.


Oh I have, but within the context of the western world, "black pride" makes sense and "white pride" doesn't precisely because of the context.

'Doesn't make sense to you', no doubt.
Personally, group pride in general doesn't make much sense to me, but I understand that it does to other people.

If not simply trying to select criteria to support one's own emotional conclusions, it's not obvious why 'response to oppression' is the only or major factor someone should use when considering whether pride is justified.

Were a black second-generation immigrant from Nigeria to Britain to say they were proud to be black and proud of their Nigerian heritage, would you say the second type of pride 'didn't make sense' because it might use different criteria to the first, and might not even meaningfully draw on oppression as a justification?
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#225  Postby Sendraks » Dec 15, 2015 3:55 pm

tolman wrote:If not simply trying to select criteria to support one's own emotional conclusions, it's not obvious why 'response to oppression' is the only or major factor someone should use when considering whether pride is justified.

Doesn't this then just become a semantics argument about which word is the most appropriate one to use?

The rationale for why the "black pride" movement exists is well documented. If you're suggesting that it is not justified, then feel free to set out your arguments as to why.

tolman wrote:Were a black second-generation immigrant from Nigeria to fictional nation where racism isn't still a problem to say they were proud to be black and proud of their Nigerian heritage, would you say the second type of pride 'didn't make sense' because it might use different criteria to the first, and might not even meaningfully draw on oppression as a justification?


F.I.F.Y
And yes - if such a nation existed, I wouldn't see there much justification for such an individual to latch onto the "black pride" banner.
Britain is not such a nation however.

As for "being proud of their heritage" is that about nationality rather than skin colour? Admittedly, like you, being proud of such things doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. What is it about being Nigerian that they are proud of? How is that any different to the equally vacuous notion of "British Pride" ?
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#226  Postby tolman » Dec 15, 2015 10:41 pm

Sendraks wrote:
tolman wrote:If not simply trying to select criteria to support one's own emotional conclusions, it's not obvious why 'response to oppression' is the only or major factor someone should use when considering whether pride is justified.

Doesn't this then just become a semantics argument about which word is the most appropriate one to use?

It seems more like you trying to find rationalisations to justify only the kinds of pride you approve of.

Sendraks wrote:The rationale for why the "black pride" movement exists is well documented. If you're suggesting that it is not justified, then feel free to set out your arguments as to why.

Where did I suggest someone else shouldn't feel a particular kind of pride?
Other people are under no obligation to justify their emotions to me, just as I'm under no obligation to justify mine to them

But than it seems that maybe you're talking less about pride (as in the feeling), and more about 'Pride' (as in something akin to a self-esteem support movement).
Not that there's inherently anything wrong with the latter, it's just not the same kind of thing as the former.

Even given your idea of pride being justified by [a group] overcoming adversity, while I may not agree with them, some people presumably could apply that idea, look at 'white peoples' going out and colonising all manner of (for them) extreme environments and see achievement to be proud of in that, especially if (as many people do) they conveniently ignore or sideline (or are substantially ignorant of) all the negative aspects.
Unless it's only achieving things in the face of adversity caused by other people which counts.

I also find strange the claim that 'white pride' is simply some kind 'me too' of reaction to 'black pride'.
In terms of 'pride-as-emotion', it's hard to see that standing up.
Even in terms of 'Pride-as-movement', I'm not sure how successfully someone could claim that movements or organisations based significantly on the idea that being white was something to be proud of postdate movements or organisations claiming being black was something to be proud of.
While there may be fundamental differences between the nature and goals of such movements or organisations, given the power and privilege imbalances, possibly historical priority is not a great basis on which to criticise the former, given the more obvious grounds for criticism.

Sendraks wrote:
tolman wrote:Were a black second-generation immigrant from Nigeria to fictional nation where racism isn't still a problem to say they were proud to be black and proud of their Nigerian heritage, would you say the second type of pride 'didn't make sense' because it might use different criteria to the first, and might not even meaningfully draw on oppression as a justification?


F.I.F.Y

No you didn't, you completely fucked it up.

If they were living in a racism-free nation, there would seem to be no justification under your standards for them being proud to be black, so there wouldn't be a contrast to be explored, which was the whole bloody point of the question.
In the question, I was accepting your justifications would apply to the first type of pride.
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#227  Postby Calilasseia » Dec 15, 2015 11:23 pm

Quite simply, the problem isn't skin colour. It's unrestrained power elites, duplicitously manipulating irrational fears about difference.
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#228  Postby OlivierK » Dec 15, 2015 11:36 pm

Yep, "black pride" is just an explicit rejection of those who feel that being black is inferior. It doesn't mean much more than "fuck you, racists!" except it's a far more positive expression of that idea.
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#229  Postby Sendraks » Dec 16, 2015 12:15 am

tolman wrote:
It seems more like you trying to find rationalisations to justify only the kinds of pride you approve of.

No, its a semantics argument.
Furthermore, you also appear to be unhelpfully speculating about what sorts of "pride" I approve of. You might want to dispense with that sort of nonsense, because it is only going to muddy your argument more than it already is.

tolman wrote:Even given your idea of pride being justified by [a group] overcoming adversity, while I may not agree with them, some people presumably could apply that idea, look at 'white peoples' going out and colonising all manner of (for them) extreme environments and see achievement to be proud of in that, especially if (as many people do) they conveniently ignore or sideline (or are substantially ignorant of) all the negative aspects.


That, however, is not about being white. That is about being human. If someone wanted to claim that "only white people could have achieved this" then we're back on the slippery slope to racism again. Those things were not achieve "because they were white."

tolman wrote:Unless it's only achieving things in the face of adversity caused by other people which counts.

Well, the whole point of "black pride" is that it is "pride" in the face of oppression by "white people." Although really what it barrels down to is humans treating other humans badly because they are different. However, "we're not different pride" doesn't really run off the tongue so well and when the identifying factor in your oppression is your "black" skin colouration, its not hard to see where this one goes.

tolman wrote:I also find strange the claim that 'white pride' is simply some kind 'me too' of reaction to 'black pride'.

Why? I've explained it quite clearly. What do you not grasp?

tolman wrote:
No you didn't, you completely fucked it up.

No I didn't and your counter-factual assertion doesn't make it so.

tolman wrote:If they were living in a racism-free nation, there would seem to be no justification under your standards for them being proud to be black,

Yes. I believe that is a point I have made a few times already in this thread. Including in the post you just quoted.

tolman wrote:In the question, I was accepting your justifications would apply to the first type of pride.

I think you need to be clearer as to what sort of "pride" you are reffering to here, as I fear you've got lost in the confusion of a semantics argument of your own making.
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#230  Postby don't get me started » Dec 16, 2015 4:42 am

Some interesting points being made here. Whilst not disagreeing with the main thrust behind the arguments about non-white groups having certain justifications for attitudes and opinions based on a history of injustice at the hands of white people, I would urge a bit of caution.
It doesn't quite sit right with me hearing white people explaining non-white people's attitudes towards race, ethnicity and history to other white people.
(I'm not sure of the ethnic identity of each and every poster in this thread, so I'm not singling anyone out...just sayin' is all.) :thumbup:
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#231  Postby laklak » Dec 16, 2015 4:47 am

Sounds to this white boy like a bit of privilege checking might be in order.
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#232  Postby crank » Dec 16, 2015 10:55 am

Calilasseia wrote:Quite simply, the problem isn't skin colour. It's unrestrained power elites, duplicitously manipulating irrational fears about difference.

Howard Zinn, in his book A Peoples History of the United States, goes into some length about the very early history of the colonies, when indentured servants sere fairly common. There situation was a step up from being a slave, but it was a small step. They had much in common, and early on, tended to friendly relations and having a sense of common purpose. The owners of the slaves and servant contracts went to some efforts to pit the two groups against each other, to make them see the other as enemy/competitor, sewing much discord and turning them against each other. It's possible this was the beginning of the hyper-racist culture to come and that is still with us today in many places.



...

From time to time, whites were involved in the slave resistance. As early as 1663, indentured white servants and black slaves in Gloucester County, Virginia, formed a conspiracy to rebel and gain their freedom. The plot was betrayed, and ended with executions. Mullin reports that the newspaper notices of runaways in Virginia often warned "ill-disposed" whites about harboring fugitives. Sometimes slaves and free men ran off together, or cooperated in crimes together. Sometimes, black male slaves ran off and joined white women. From time to time, white ship captains and watermen dealt with runaways, perhaps making the slave a part of the crew.
...
Only one fear was greater than the fear of black rebellion in the new American colonies. That was the fear that discontented whites would join black slaves to overthrow the existing order. In the early years of slavery, especially, before racism as a way of thinking was firmly ingrained, while white indentured servants were often treated as badly as black slaves, there was a possibility of cooperation. As Edmund Morgan sees it:

There are hints that the two despised groups initially saw each other as sharing the same predicament. It was common, for example, for servants and slaves to run away together, steal hogs together, get drunk together. It was not uncommon for them to make love together. In Bacon's Rebellion, one of the last groups to surrender was a mixed band of eighty negroes and twenty English servants.
As Morgan says, masters, "initially at least, perceived slaves in much the same way they had always perceived servants... shiftless, irresponsible, unfaithful, ungrateful, dishonest..." And "if freemen with disappointed hopes should make common cause with slaves of desperate hope, the results might be worse than anything Bacon had done."

And so, measures were taken. About the same time that slave codes, involving discipline and punishment, were passed by the Virginia Assembly,

Virginia's ruling class, having proclaimed that all white men were superior to black, went on to offer their social (but white) inferiors a number of benefits previously denied them. In 1705 a law was passed requiring masters to provide white servants whose indenture time was up with ten bushels of corn, thirty shillings, and a gun, while women servants were to get 15 bushels of corn and forty shillings. Also, the newly freed servants were to get 50 acres of land.
Morgan concludes: "Once the small planter felt less exploited by taxation and began to prosper a little, he became less turbulent, less dangerous, more respectable. He could begin to see his big neighbor not as an extortionist but as a powerful protector of their common interests."
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#233  Postby Macdoc » Dec 16, 2015 12:25 pm

A detailed lesson in group on group oppression is Ken Burn's PBS masterpiece The West. Cruelty unimaginable in so many venues. :(

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Currently on Netflix and well worth the journey.....as heart rending as much of it is.
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#234  Postby NineBerry » Dec 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Great comic on one of the topics discussed:

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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#235  Postby Manticore » Mar 12, 2017 8:54 pm

I wouldn't worry. If the 'white race' die out, we only have to send a few people from Africa to a cold climate and in 25,000 years or so we will have a load more.
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#236  Postby VazScep » Mar 19, 2017 1:14 pm

Manticore wrote:I wouldn't worry. If the 'white race' die out, we only have to send a few people from Africa to a cold climate and in 25,000 years or so we will have a load more.
And so long as we don't take Vitamin D supplements.

I assume getting our melanin production levels back up takes fewer generations, again without sunblock.
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#237  Postby Manticore » Mar 21, 2017 6:26 am

It's the pointy noses that take a long time.
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#238  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Mar 21, 2017 7:32 am

I can't see the white race (as if that's a thing) disappearing having any discernable impact.

I mean, people would buy less sunscreen. That's about it though .
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#239  Postby felltoearth » Mar 21, 2017 8:02 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:I can't see the white race (as if that's a thing) disappearing having any discernable impact.

I mean, people would buy less sunscreen. That's about it though .

Toast points. What would happen to toast points?
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Re: With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more whi

#240  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Mar 21, 2017 2:09 pm

I had to Google what those are.

I'm sure a cultural treasure such as toast points will be adopted and maintained in future societies.
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