A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

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A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#1  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 27, 2019 7:16 pm

Theory of mind is the ability to attribute mental states—beliefs, intents, desires, emotions, knowledge, etc.—to oneself, and to others, and to understand that others have beliefs, desires, intentions, and perspectives that are different from one's own.[1] Theory of mind is crucial for everyday human social interactions and is used when analyzing, judging, and inferring others' behaviors...Empathy is a related concept, meaning the recognition and understanding of the states of mind of others, including their beliefs, desires and particularly emotions. This is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes".


Psychological projection is a defence mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is habitually rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. It incorporates blame shifting.


I often trot out the line "another psychic in our midst" here when I perceive a post as inaccurately attributing a certain psychological state to underpin a post. When, on the other hand, I am in agreement with the attribution, I let it go or even agree.

I guess we all play the psychic in day to day life, but I wonder just how often we get things wrong about this. Probably not the best OP I've made but maybe interesting for some.

:cheers:
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Re: A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#2  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 27, 2019 8:15 pm

Similar to projection, and not tarred with that dutty psychoanalysis brush:

In psychology, the false-consensus effect or false-consensus bias is an attributional type of cognitive bias whereby people tend to overestimate the extent to which their opinions, beliefs, preferences, values, and habits are normal and typical of those of others (i.e., that others also think the same way that they do).[1] This cognitive bias tends to lead to the perception of a consensus that does not exist, a "false consensus".
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Re: A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#3  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 27, 2019 8:46 pm

This is just begging for application. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of talk we've heard over and over again from people repeating what they've heard other people saying.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#4  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 27, 2019 9:01 pm

Even polygraph activated internet routers wouldn't solve this one Cito.
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Re: A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#5  Postby surreptitious57 » Jan 28, 2019 2:58 am


In psychology the false consensus effect or false consensus bias is an attributional type of cognitive bias whereby people tend to overestimate the extent to which their opinions and beliefs and preferences and values and habits are normal and typical of those of others ( that others also think the same way that they do ) This cognitive bias tends to lead to the perception
of a consensus that does not exist a false consensus

I find that consensus is not something I am very interested in nowadays as I am more interested in listening to those
I disagree with than those I do. Although I try to be as detached as much as I can as that is my natural state of mind

Furthermore as we all know arguments rest or fall on their merit not on how popular they are. I have precisely zero
interest in making anyone think like me. If though someone wishes to impart any of their wisdom then I am all ears
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#6  Postby The_Piper » Jan 28, 2019 4:29 am

Keep It Real wrote:
Theory of mind is the ability to attribute mental states—beliefs, intents, desires, emotions, knowledge, etc.—to oneself, and to others, and to understand that others have beliefs, desires, intentions, and perspectives that are different from one's own.[1] Theory of mind is crucial for everyday human social interactions and is used when analyzing, judging, and inferring others' behaviors...Empathy is a related concept, meaning the recognition and understanding of the states of mind of others, including their beliefs, desires and particularly emotions. This is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes".


Psychological projection is a defence mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is habitually rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. It incorporates blame shifting.


I often trot out the line "another psychic in our midst" here when I perceive a post as inaccurately attributing a certain psychological state to underpin a post. When, on the other hand, I am in agreement with the attribution, I let it go or even agree.

I guess we all play the psychic in day to day life, but I wonder just how often we get things wrong about this. Probably not the best OP I've made but maybe interesting for some.

:cheers:

I think they're quite distinct from each other. So these descriptions can be converted to Trump and squirrels for easier discussion. :shifty: Donald Trump projects nearly every day, for instance when he says that Hilary colluded with the Russians. He doesn't seem to have much empathy, if any.
A squirrel has theory of mind, as they behave differently if they think another squirrel is watching them hide food. They are aware that the other squirrel is an individual who also may desire that same food, and if it sees where it's hidden, may take it.
They're not projecting what they themselves feel onto others, they're attending to their own needs while aware other entities exist with their own wants and needs, which may overlap.
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Re: A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#7  Postby laklak » Jan 28, 2019 4:31 am

The microphone that is LakLak is projecting theories into your minds.
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Re: A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#8  Postby The_Piper » Jan 28, 2019 4:35 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:
It's true, I suddenly need to go grab my nip bottle and pop a few marijuana oil capsules!
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Re: A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#9  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 28, 2019 4:42 am

Theory of mind? It's just a theory.

I can sense us coming to a consensus.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#10  Postby Keep It Real » Jan 28, 2019 1:32 pm

The_Piper wrote:I think they're quite distinct from each other. So these descriptions can be converted to Trump and squirrels for easier discussion. :shifty: Donald Trump projects nearly every day, for instance when he says that Hilary colluded with the Russians. He doesn't seem to have much empathy, if any.


Agreed he doesn't seem to have much empathy (hehe greed) but the accusations against HRC could equally well be mere political game playing rather than projection. He may also have advanced TOM but is just a total bastard. Calling Diana Troy....

The_Piper wrote:A squirrel has theory of mind, as they behave differently if they think another squirrel is watching them hide food. They are aware that the other squirrel is an individual who also may desire that same food, and if it sees where it's hidden, may take it. They're not projecting what they themselves feel onto others, they're attending to their own needs while aware other entities exist with their own wants and needs, which may overlap.


One could also presume that said squirrel has TOM as it knows the eagle wants to eat it, and so scurries for cover. Methinks that would be a mistake.
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Re: A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#11  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jan 28, 2019 4:55 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
and to understand that others have beliefs, desires, intentions, and perspectives that are different from one's own.

Looks pretty distinct to me.
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Re: A fine line between theory of mind and projection?

#12  Postby The_Piper » Jan 28, 2019 6:11 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
The_Piper wrote:I think they're quite distinct from each other. So these descriptions can be converted to Trump and squirrels for easier discussion. :shifty: Donald Trump projects nearly every day, for instance when he says that Hilary colluded with the Russians. He doesn't seem to have much empathy, if any.


Agreed he doesn't seem to have much empathy (hehe greed) but the accusations against HRC could equally well be mere political game playing rather than projection. He may also have advanced TOM but is just a total bastard. Calling Diana Troy....

The_Piper wrote:A squirrel has theory of mind, as they behave differently if they think another squirrel is watching them hide food. They are aware that the other squirrel is an individual who also may desire that same food, and if it sees where it's hidden, may take it. They're not projecting what they themselves feel onto others, they're attending to their own needs while aware other entities exist with their own wants and needs, which may overlap.


One could also presume that said squirrel has TOM as it knows the eagle wants to eat it, and so scurries for cover. Methinks that would be a mistake.
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There are other examples, such as spending a lifetime employing undocumented immigrants (sometimes cheating them out of pay), his own parents grandparents were immigrants, he married two immigrants, his wife worked illegally in the US, etc.
The point about squirrels is only a technicality. Some species are said to have different alarm calls for threats from the air or ground. Perhaps that suggests that being afraid of eagles is at least partly a learned behavior. I don't know if TOM applies to that aspect or not.
I guess we'll have to reconvert back to humans, because there's no question that we have theory of mind in multiple aspects.
To project our own feelings onto others is a product of the principle of TOM, (but it is not the same thing as empathy).
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