Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

Revived patients claim to have seen the light

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#41  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 27, 2017 7:54 pm

Wortfish wrote:
theropod wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
LucidFlight wrote:The thing I don't get is why we even need a brain in the first place.

The brain is the seat of the nervous system, but not necessarily the seat of consciousness.



:clap:

I am convinced. Not of your assertion, but of my suspicions. I called it yesterday.

RS

It is an age-old question. This study provides support to those who claim the mind is not merely the output of the brain.

Just as much as it provides support for those who claim that the sight is not merely the output of the eyes. I.e. none at all.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#42  Postby Wortfish » Dec 27, 2017 7:56 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Still a vague definition. Being aware how? Visual? Sound? Touch? Memory?

Being aware of all sensory information.

An incredibly low number and unless they had really unique surgery, not that noteworthy.

Even if one patient reported this happening, that would be a complete mystery. It is one thing to be aware when your brain is inactive, it is another to be aware looking down at oneself.

Indistinguishable from UFO abduction stories.

UFO stories occur when someone is either awake or dreaming, not dead.

Meaning there's evidence that what ever they experienced did not occur during that period.

Well, that assumes that many of the patients were lying.
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#43  Postby Wortfish » Dec 27, 2017 7:58 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Just as much as it provides support for those who claim that the sight is not merely the output of the eyes. I.e. none at all.

Actually, the study shows that people may be able to see when their eyes are receiving no optical stimulation.
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#44  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 27, 2017 8:02 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Still a vague definition. Being aware how? Visual? Sound? Touch? Memory?

Being aware of all sensory information.

Yet another obtuse definition.
Which sensory information? Yours? Someone else's? Both?
Are you aware of sensory information that possible nerve impaired bodies wouldn't be aware of?

Wortfish wrote:
An incredibly low number and unless they had really unique surgery, not that noteworthy.

Even if one patient reported this happening, that would be a complete mystery.

Except that it wouldn't. I refer you again to UFO abduction experiences.

Wortfish wrote: It is one thing to be aware when your brain is inactive, it is another to be aware looking down at oneself.

And we have no evidence that either is possible, much less happened.
Assertions by people who were barely or not concious at the time and often also under the influence of medication and/or sedation prove nothing.

Wortfish wrote:
Indistinguishable from UFO abduction stories.

UFO stories occur when someone is either awake or dreaming, not dead.

Neither do NDE's. It's in the name ffs.

Wortfish wrote:
Meaning there's evidence that what ever they experienced did not occur during that period.

Well, that assumes that many of the patients were lying.

Here's where you do demonstrate how that is the case.
This is just asine and fallacious as the liar, lunatic, lord canard.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#45  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 27, 2017 8:04 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Just as much as it provides support for those who claim that the sight is not merely the output of the eyes. I.e. none at all.

Actually, the study shows that people may be able to see when their eyes are receiving no optical stimulation.

It does no such thing Wortfish.
You claiming that it does demonstrates you either don't understand the study and it's flaws and results, or are dishonestly making shit up.
There is no evidence in that study that people experienced anything whilst being (brain)dead.
All they have is assertions made by patients after the 'fact', with no way to verify what they claim to remember actually occured or occured while they were (brain) rather than before or after.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#46  Postby Thommo » Dec 27, 2017 9:31 pm

Wortfish wrote:
theropod wrote:
Wortfish wrote:
LucidFlight wrote:The thing I don't get is why we even need a brain in the first place.

The brain is the seat of the nervous system, but not necessarily the seat of consciousness.



:clap:

I am convinced. Not of your assertion, but of my suspicions. I called it yesterday.

RS

It is an age-old question. This study provides support to those who claim the mind is not merely the output of the brain.


How is that?

The study consisted of asking questions to cardiac arrest survivors. All the stuff about when electrical activity in the brain stops after cardiac arrest was an informal appraisal of background info about how long brain activity continues after cardiac arrest, which is in fact about 30 seconds when circulation and respiration stop, but may be longer when artificial methods (e.g. those used on cardiac arrest survivors) are used to continue circulation and respiration. Chemical activity also continues for longer periods after cardiac arrest with effects on memory that are not fully understood.

If the study showed that memories were formed when there was no electrical or chemical activity in the brain that could account for memory formation that would say something about a separation of memory (as a function, perhaps, of mind) and brain. Since the study didn't do that - in fact it didn't even investigate electrical or chemical activity in the brain - there seems to be zero basis for saying the study supports the claim the mind is more than the output of the brain.

The study seems to suggest there are common threads running through people's reports of near death experiences, it doesn't even attempt to show that these experiences are happening at a time when the brain could not write experiences to memory.
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#47  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 27, 2017 9:49 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Just as much as it provides support for those who claim that the sight is not merely the output of the eyes. I.e. none at all.

Actually, the study shows that people may be able to see when their eyes are receiving no optical stimulation.

Exactly how?
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#48  Postby Macdoc » Dec 27, 2017 10:02 pm

Nothing new ....the brain does NOT stop activity ...consciousness does...FFS this is not new

Boy Survives 42 Minutes Underwater | Time
time.com › Health › medicine
May 27, 2015 - Michael isn't the first to recover from being underwater for so long; there's a report of a person surviving after being submerged for an hour. Other young boys have recovered after going under in frigid lakes, ponds and oceans for anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes. Experts say it's no accident that most of the ..


Anna Bågenholm - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Bågenholm
Anna Elisabeth Johansson Bågenholm (born 1970) is a Swedish radiologist from Vänersborg, who survived after a skiing accident in 1999 left her trapped under a layer of ice for 80 minutes in freezing water. During this time she became a victim of extreme hypothermia and her body temperature decreased to 13.7 °C (56.7 ..


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Bågenholm

The shame is that some that could have been saved with longer revival techniques were abandoned too soon.
Blood warming machines make that much more likely.

No woo...just science and marvelous human physiology we still have not explored the limits of. :coffee:
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#49  Postby Thommo » Dec 27, 2017 10:09 pm

One of the interesting things about this (in)famous study, published in 2014, and having been commenced in 2008 (and predicted to last three years) is that famously, it was the study that attempted to confirm Out Of Body experiences by placing pictures on the top of high shelves the patients could not see. When the results were published and despite the significance attached to the pictures by the researchers in their pre-study press releases it turned out that nobody had seen them after all.

There is one interesting claim that keeps being repeated about a single case out of the 2060 they looked at: "For the second patient instead, it was possible to verify the accuracy of the experience and to show that awareness occurred paradoxically some minutes after the heart stopped, at a time when "the brain ordinarily stops functioning and cortical activity becomes isoelectric." The experience was not compatible with an illusion, imaginary event or hallucination since visual (other than of ceiling shelves' images) and auditory awareness could be corroborated.[24]". I have been unable to find any details behind this claim, but allegedly they can be found in this paper, that I do not have access to: Death and consciousness––an overview of the mental and cognitive experience of death. I am suspicious though, given the paper being written by the same researcher who started as a believer and how drastically the emphasis changed from the experimental design for verification involving the pictures. Somehow we devolved from a genuine experiment to a single anecdote out of thousands along the way, which is not a good sign in terms of scientific quality and avoidance of biases.*

While I was reading around about this, I did find this page about a couple of the most famous NDE cases, which makes a good read with lots of info into how accurate the anecdotes turned out to be: https://infidels.org/library/modern/kei ... html#maria

ETA: *There's a quora answer that seems to mention details of the one confirmatory case that might allow for follow up, but (perhaps unsurprisingly) suggest the story may not be all it was cracked up to be: https://www.quora.com/Was-there-any-cor ... o-prove-it
According to Caroline Watt "The one ‘verifiable period of conscious awareness’ that Parnia was able to report did not relate to this objective test. Rather, it was a patient giving a supposedly accurate report of events during his resuscitation. He didn’t identify the pictures, he described the defibrillator machine noise. But that’s not very impressive since many people know what goes on in an emergency room setting from seeing recreations on television."
.
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#50  Postby The_Piper » Dec 27, 2017 10:15 pm

laklak wrote:Did you shit your brains out?
Yes, butt that's beside the point.
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#51  Postby theropod » Dec 27, 2017 10:31 pm

Such hogwash. My mother had coronary arterial bypass surgery in 1979, and they stopped her heart and put her on a machine. She underwent several repeat procedures wherein her heart was stopped and restarted. A more faithful Christian there never was. She never recounted being on the “other side”. Is my anecdotal story of any more worth than another?

RS
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#52  Postby Thommo » Dec 27, 2017 10:38 pm

The details of the one "confirmatory" case are alleged to be found in Parnia's book Erasing Death: The Science That is Rewriting the Boundaries Between Life and Death (Harper Collins, 2013), but I have to say there's no way I'm throwing money at him to find out.

It's not clear at what stage the interview was conducted, many of the patients gave their interviews after the patient was discharged, so the detail that this patient allegedly correctly identified the physical description of a man in scrubs who was present while he was in a state with no electrical activity in his brain is exposed to all sorts of sources of error, bias and confound. The patient had quite likely met this individual again already, so his ability to physically describe him becomes insignificant.
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#53  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 27, 2017 11:09 pm

I drowned to the point of unconsciousness when I was a teen. It was at a neighborhood event, and I was not alone. There was no magic lights or any such shit. There was lots of water, splashing, then darkness starting at the edges until unconsciousness was complete. I remember one thought after things went black: It seemed a damned shame to die so young.

It took a few moments to realize what had happened when I woke up as my neighbors were carrying me out of the water. My first conscious thought was I was happy to be alive and breathing.

I don't know how long I was out. Seconds, probably less than a minute. Couldn't have been two minutes, people were close to me.

Shit just went black.
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#54  Postby hackenslash » Dec 29, 2017 11:39 am

Wortfish wrote:

AWARE—AWAreness during REsuscitation—A prospective study:
http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/art ... 4/fulltext

Cardiac arrest (CA) survivors experience cognitive deficits including post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). It is unclear whether these are related to cognitive/mental experiences and awareness during CPR. Despite anecdotal reports the broad range of cognitive/mental experiences and awareness associated with CPR has not been systematically studied.
Methods
The incidence and validity of awareness together with the range, characteristics and themes relating to memories/cognitive processes during CA was investigated through a 4 year multi-center observational study using a three stage quantitative and qualitative interview system. The feasibility of objectively testing the accuracy of claims of visual and auditory awareness was examined using specific tests. The outcome measures were (1) awareness/memories during CA and (2) objective verification of claims of awareness using specific tests.
Results
Among 2060 CA events, 140 survivors completed stage 1 interviews, while 101 of 140 patients completed stage 2 interviews. 46% had memories with 7 major cognitive themes: fear; animals/plants; bright light; violence/persecution; deja-vu; family; recalling events post-CA and 9% had NDEs, while 2% described awareness with explicit recall of ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ actual events related to their resuscitation. One had a verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected.
Conclusions
CA survivors commonly experience a broad range of cognitive themes, with 2% exhibiting full awareness. This supports other recent studies that have indicated consciousness may be present despite clinically undetectable consciousness. This together with fearful experiences may contribute to PTSD and other cognitive deficits post CA.


It's all true! In related Earth-shattering news, the anecdotal experience of a person who's never driven a car provides evidence of what driving a Bugatti Veyron is like!

All this and more can be yours for the low, low price of your critical faculties.
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#55  Postby Mike_L » Dec 29, 2017 5:00 pm

Too many of these "near death experiences" / "out of body experiences" follow the tired old script in which the nearly-deceased ends up in the bosom of the Loving Christ... (yes, the crappest Savior in whole pantheon of Saviors... the same Loving Christ who was either unable or unwilling to intervene when His followers spent a few centuries torturing and burning people -- even children -- in His loving name).
So, for the sake of a bit of balance...

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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#56  Postby Animavore » Dec 29, 2017 5:11 pm

How does this mind, once allegedly disembodied and passed on to a place beyond, know to go back to the body after it has been revived after a few hours? Is it possible to sever the body from the mind leaving a living piece of meat behind?
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#57  Postby NineBerry » Dec 29, 2017 6:07 pm

Animavore wrote:How does this mind, once allegedly disembodied and passed on to a place beyond, know to go back to the body after it has been revived after a few hours? Is it possible to sever the body from the mind leaving a living piece of meat behind?


Zombies!
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#58  Postby Shrunk » Dec 29, 2017 7:08 pm

Sam Harris nailed this. Nothing more needs to be said:

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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#59  Postby Greyman » Dec 30, 2017 8:48 am

Animavore wrote:How does this mind, once allegedly disembodied and passed on to a place beyond, know to go back to the body after it has been revived after a few hours? Is it possible to sever the body from the mind leaving a living piece of meat behind?
Indeed, why do we never get a case of someone returned to the wrong body?
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Re: Comprehensive evidence that the mind surives death

#60  Postby Fallible » Dec 30, 2017 9:55 am

This thread is hilarious.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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