Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

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Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#1  Postby Macdoc » Feb 13, 2017 9:00 am

Human Brain's Biological Algorithm Mirrors the Internet --"May Not Be a Coincidence" (VIDEO)
February 11, 2017

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In 2013, Neuroscientist Christof Koch, chief scientific officer at the Allen Institute for Brain Science, observed that consciousness arises within any sufficiently complex, information-processing system. All animals, from humans on down to earthworms, are conscious; even the internet could be. Why? Because that’s the way the universe works.


good read
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/20 ... .html#more

Here is the video

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Re: Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#2  Postby chairman bill » Feb 13, 2017 9:45 am

It's not emergent, it's all down to a C particle. A fuckwit will be along shortly to confirm this.
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Re: Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#3  Postby Animavore » Feb 13, 2017 10:39 am

I read Koch's book. It' s good. Better than that Nager or Chalmers nonsense anyway. The guys actually looking for solutions instead of writing them off in advance like an intellectual scardy cat.
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Re: Consciousness is Entertainment dammit

#4  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 13, 2017 11:07 am

Can we define 'consciousness' however we like? Why or why not? List the constraints -- I mean, for defining it however.

Wordsmiths (authors) like Koch make their living off of people like you, looking to turn form into substance, for those who need something that will bend a spoon. Read it for entertainment? No problem.

Animavore wrote:The guys actually looking for solutions instead of writing them off in advance


Do you know what 'solutions' look like, or are you just willing to take Koch's word for what they look like?
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#5  Postby TopCat » Feb 13, 2017 11:46 am

Suppose the internet (or some other big complicated network) was conscious. In a similar way to how we're conscious.

Would we be able to tell?

I'm not sure I can articulate the question I'm trying to ask any better than that yet, I'm working on it :)
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Re: Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#6  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 13, 2017 12:35 pm

TopCat wrote:In a similar way to how we're conscious.


Oh? What way is that? The way we are! Yah, circular definition is circular. Using a word like 'similar' is pointless if you're not comparing something with something else.

Ah, OK, you're comparing computer networks to humans. Let me count the ways. Using just my fingers and toes, base five, I can count up to 625.
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Re: Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#7  Postby Blackadder » Feb 13, 2017 12:57 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
TopCat wrote:In a similar way to how we're conscious.


Oh? What way is that? The way we are! Yah, circular definition is circular. Using a word like 'similar' is pointless if you're not comparing something with something else.

Ah, OK, you're comparing computer networks to humans. Let me count the ways. Using just my fingers and toes, base five, I can count up to 625.


Is there currently any way to define C without circularity? If we are the only self-aware entities that we have experience of, how do we come up with a definition of self-awareness that isn't self-referential? Until we can download human brain activity into a machine, will there be any way to examine the actual operation of self-awareness from an external perspective (as opposed to using inference)?
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Re: Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#8  Postby DavidMcC » Feb 13, 2017 1:29 pm

As the internet does not have its own control of anything, the question of whether it is conscious simply does not arise.
The internet itself is passive - only internet users are active.
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Re: Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#9  Postby TopCat » Feb 13, 2017 1:44 pm

DavidMcC wrote:As the internet does not have its own control of anything, the question of whether it is conscious simply does not arise.
The internet itself is passive - only internet users are active.

I didn't ask whether the internet was conscious. But thank you anyway, for answering a trivial question that I didn't ask.
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Re: Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#10  Postby DavidMcC » Feb 13, 2017 1:49 pm

TopCat wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:As the internet does not have its own control of anything, the question of whether it is conscious simply does not arise.
The internet itself is passive - only internet users are active.

I didn't ask whether the internet was conscious. But thank you anyway, for answering a trivial question that I didn't ask.

Really??:
TopCat wrote:Suppose the internet (or some other big complicated network) was conscious. In a similar way to how we're conscious.

Would we be able to tell?

...

I was addressing your supposition.
EDIT: ... And showing that it is unrealistic to make such a supposition.
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Re: Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#11  Postby TopCat » Feb 13, 2017 2:00 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
TopCat wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:As the internet does not have its own control of anything, the question of whether it is conscious simply does not arise.
The internet itself is passive - only internet users are active.

I didn't ask whether the internet was conscious. But thank you anyway, for answering a trivial question that I didn't ask.

Really??:
TopCat wrote:Suppose the internet (or some other big complicated network) was conscious. In a similar way to how we're conscious.

Would we be able to tell?

...

I was addressing your supposition.
EDIT: ... And showing that it is unrealistic to make such a supposition.

No, you were addressing a supposition you imagined I was making, which I was not.
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Re: Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#12  Postby Shrunk » Feb 13, 2017 2:51 pm

DavidMcC wrote:As the internet does not have its own control of anything, the question of whether it is conscious simply does not arise.
The internet itself is passive - only internet users are active.


Unless not.
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Re: Consciousness is Emergent dammit :D

#13  Postby TopCat » Feb 13, 2017 4:07 pm

The reason I'm curious about "would we be able to tell?" is because I'm intrigued by the analogy in the OP.

Suppose you could get inside the brain with a 'synapse-sniffer' (like a packet sniffer on computer networks). For those that confuse this use of the word 'suppose' with the making of a supposition that something is the case, I am not suggesting that this is possible in reality.

Now, I'm not a neurochemist, but the chemistry occurring at each synapse and within each neuron is essentially the same, isn't it?

So your synapse-sniffer would see the same network traffic - in terms of packet content - everywhere in the brain. So in the same way, the details of the internet traffic contents - although important to its users - could be irrelevant to whether consciousness could arise. What's important is the routing, and the number of packets passing the nodes per second. And this is within the internet's control, albeit within its design parameters.

So the fact that the internet is - from our point of view - a mechanism for routing information that is relevant to its users, may not be relevant to whether it could be conscious, with its consciousness arising from its patterns of routing and nodal traffic volumes.

I'm not suggesting the internet is conscious. But if it were, how would we tell?
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