Depression’s physical source discovered

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Depression’s physical source discovered

#1  Postby the_5th_ape » Oct 19, 2016 1:22 pm

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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#2  Postby Sendraks » Oct 19, 2016 1:30 pm

FFS 5th Ape, at least quote a little bit of what you're linking to.

The study shows that depression affects the part of the brain which is implicated in non-reward - the lateral orbitofrontal cortex – so that sufferers of the disease feel a sense of loss and disappointment associated with not receiving rewards.

This area of the brain, which becomes active when rewards are not received, is also connected with the part of the brain which is involved in one’s sense of self, thus potentially leading to thoughts of personal loss and low self-esteem.


The report confirms a lot of what I already know as a result of going through CBT and what my therapist talked about at the time, not to mention its also covered in fairly basic psychology stuff that been around for some time. Failure to reward or treat oneself can be damaging and it is important to celebrate life's achievements, even the trivial ones sometimes, as this can help stave off depression. Unfortunately there is something of a pscyhological dependency that develops in needing positive feedback from others and someone in the depths of depression, as I have been, can be skeptical or aversion to all forms of praise and utterly unable to recognise or celebrate their own successes. This drives you further down the spiral.

Still, its nice to see research to support this.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#3  Postby igorfrankensteen » Oct 20, 2016 8:48 pm

Glad you are feeling better. My own very lengthy and very deep adventure with severe depression, was nothing at all like that. It had nothing to do with "rewards not received."

What with what I've been through, and reports such as yours and the one you refer to, I am confident that depression is like many other human maladies, in that it is the result of a collection of a number of different, and sometimes unrelated areas of both the physiology and the psychology of the sufferer.

My own greatest successful battle against depression, was the day I finally recognized that I actually WANTED to be depressed, because it was the source of a certain amount of safety for me. Rewards or the lack of them had nothing at all to do with it.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#4  Postby Willie71 » Nov 07, 2016 11:15 pm

The depression spectrum needs a very serious overhaul (at least if we go by DSM classifications.) there are likely multiple genes, multiple alleles, for which there is good preliminary evidence, and a slew of social conditions all contributing to various mood, anxiety, and attentional disorders. The arbitrary labeling is a poor fit for what people actually experience.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#5  Postby Sendraks » Nov 07, 2016 11:40 pm

Willie71 wrote:The depression spectrum needs a very serious overhaul (at least if we go by DSM classifications.) there are likely multiple genes, multiple alleles, for which there is good preliminary evidence, and a slew of social conditions all contributing to various mood, anxiety, and attentional disorders. The arbitrary labeling is a poor fit for what people actually experience.


:this:
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#6  Postby chairman bill » Nov 08, 2016 9:37 am

igorfrankensteen wrote: My own greatest successful battle against depression, was the day I finally recognized that I actually WANTED to be depressed, because it was the source of a certain amount of safety for me. Rewards or the lack of them had nothing at all to do with it.


That feeling of safety - there's your reward, right there.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#7  Postby Fallible » Nov 08, 2016 9:38 am

:nod:
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Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#8  Postby Sendraks » Nov 08, 2016 10:50 am

To expand on my comment in response to Willie, because typing :this: doesn't do it justice, a consistent of my experience of working with, and being treated by, mental health professionals in the UK is that they try to avoid a diagnosis of "depression" because it has become a catch-all term and is frankly meaningless as a diagnosis. Mental health professionals want to get to the route causes of what is causing a person to feel depressed and all the different factors that Willie referred to, are what get looked at to try and narrow it down to as specific causes as possible.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#9  Postby Willie71 » Nov 08, 2016 4:09 pm

chairman bill wrote:
igorfrankensteen wrote: My own greatest successful battle against depression, was the day I finally recognized that I actually WANTED to be depressed, because it was the source of a certain amount of safety for me. Rewards or the lack of them had nothing at all to do with it.


That feeling of safety - there's your reward, right there.


There is a fellow who recently spoke in my area, dr. Gabor Mate, who has been working with trauma for a very long time, and he has some interesting views on this topic, as well as cancer, auto immune diseases, etc. He's presenting similar information to Bleiberg and Allen, who were quite influential in partially settling the nurture/nature debate around the year 2000. Dr. Mate has his lectures up on YouTube. Interesting to watch.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#10  Postby Willie71 » Nov 08, 2016 4:15 pm

Sendraks wrote:To expand on my comment in response to Willie, because typing :this: doesn't do it justice, a consistent of my experience of working with, and being treated by, mental health professionals in the UK is that they try to avoid a diagnosis of "depression" because it has become a catch-all term and is frankly meaningless as a diagnosis. Mental health professionals want to get to the route causes of what is causing a person to feel depressed and all the different factors that Willie referred to, are what get looked at to try and narrow it down to as specific causes as possible.


In very broad terms, I tend to go through the history and mental status to take a best guess if it's primarily dopamine, serotonin, or stress related, and develop a treatment plan depending on the best probability. The overlap between depression, anxiety, and ADHD is too great to make any real inferences from. About 90% of people will qualify for 2 of the three diagnosis, and over 60% will qualify for all three. The trauma/genetics debate is interesting, and I'm no longer seen as outside the mainstream, where I was a decade ago.

In North America, this approach is relatively new. It's interesting that my most consistent referral source is a physician from the UK. I think what I do is familiar to him, and it's a good fit.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#11  Postby igorfrankensteen » Nov 09, 2016 12:33 am

chairman bill wrote:
igorfrankensteen wrote: My own greatest successful battle against depression, was the day I finally recognized that I actually WANTED to be depressed, because it was the source of a certain amount of safety for me. Rewards or the lack of them had nothing at all to do with it.


That feeling of safety - there's your reward, right there.


I'm guessing you read the opening few posts differently than I did. What I read, indicated that this person thought that the LACK of rewards, was what CAUSED the depression.

What I said, was that I was rewarded BY MY DEPRESSION.

Do you see the difference?
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#12  Postby Willie71 » Nov 11, 2016 12:14 am

igorfrankensteen wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
igorfrankensteen wrote: My own greatest successful battle against depression, was the day I finally recognized that I actually WANTED to be depressed, because it was the source of a certain amount of safety for me. Rewards or the lack of them had nothing at all to do with it.


That feeling of safety - there's your reward, right there.


I'm guessing you read the opening few posts differently than I did. What I read, indicated that this person thought that the LACK of rewards, was what CAUSED the depression.

What I said, was that I was rewarded BY MY DEPRESSION.

Do you see the difference?


This is quite common. The familiar is preferred, because change is more stressful than the status quo, even if the status quo is miserable. The other principle is secondary gain. Both are powerful motivators, and are difficult to overcome. Less directly related is the concept of traumatic bonding.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#13  Postby archibald » Nov 11, 2016 11:59 am

igorfrankensteen wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
igorfrankensteen wrote: My own greatest successful battle against depression, was the day I finally recognized that I actually WANTED to be depressed, because it was the source of a certain amount of safety for me. Rewards or the lack of them had nothing at all to do with it.


That feeling of safety - there's your reward, right there.


I'm guessing you read the opening few posts differently than I did. What I read, indicated that this person thought that the LACK of rewards, was what CAUSED the depression.

What I said, was that I was rewarded BY MY DEPRESSION.

Do you see the difference?


Yes, I think I see the difference.

To me, this sounds like one of the typical conundrums involved in depression (which I have also suffered from). It's a sort of chicken and egg situation.

What I would try to add is this; it wasn't (as you put it) that 'this person thought' anything (excuse me for bolding it in your post, only so that you know what I'm referring to), it was the results of the OP study which suggested it, which would, if the conclusions drawn from the study were correct (I'm not assuming they were) be quite a different thing, as in not being anecdotal.

And now to be anecdotal myself, I have, in my time, had virtually all the forms of therapy and medication available. I had ECT in my 20's (I'm in my mid-50's now). I had CBT. I had all sorts of tablets. I had years and years of the Freudian thing. I left the Freudian-esque therapy slightly wary of ideas such as that I 'wanted' to be depressed. I'm not saying that I think the suggestion is daft, there seems to be something in it, but I do tend to think of that aspect of depression (at least the sort I experienced) as not unlike, in some ways, blaming kidnap victims for developing Stockholm Syndrome, by which I mean to say that I think it may be an overstated part of an explanation. I could be wrong of course, but nowadays, I tend to think that better progress in treatments for depression are going to come from medical biology & genetics than from talk/think therapies.

That's not to say that if someone has it, and is struggling with it, and can't obtain a medical cure (because it's not available yet) that they shouldn't do CBT etc. Nor am I anti-practicioners of such treatments. In my experience and opinion, by and large they're trying their best and working hard. I found talk therapy quite (indeed very) useful, and I do think that if you have depression, you should do all you can to try to beat it. I just think the talk therapy was ultimately tinkering more with the symptoms rather than the underlying causes. I say that while appreciating that the two things (symptoms and causes) are probably dynamically inter-related, just as natural/biological and environmental factors are. Hence the chicken and egg questions.

I will finish with an old joke. How many psychotherapists does it take to change a lightbulb? Only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change. :)
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#14  Postby igorfrankensteen » Nov 12, 2016 1:29 pm

Something which ought to be recognized, if it isn't already, is that just as there is such a thing as "walking pneumonia," that there is also such a thing as might be called "cheerful depression." Lots of people who suffer from depression, behave to the contrary, to most appearances.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#15  Postby tuco » Nov 12, 2016 7:08 pm

These new discoveries could herald a breakthrough in treating depression, by going to the root cause of the illness, and helping depressed people to stop focussing on negative thoughts.


Indeed, how about removing likes, from FB?
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#16  Postby Willie71 » Nov 13, 2016 6:36 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:Something which ought to be recognized, if it isn't already, is that just as there is such a thing as "walking pneumonia," that there is also such a thing as might be called "cheerful depression." Lots of people who suffer from depression, behave to the contrary, to most appearances.


One of the hallmarks of atypical depression is mood reactivity, which is a shift in mood during novel or positive times that override the depression. They appear fine in a social situation briefly, but have more severe and debilitating symptoms that typical depression.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#17  Postby laklak » Nov 14, 2016 2:47 am

Life, that's the physical source. As far as we know dead people aren't depressed.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#18  Postby archibald » Nov 14, 2016 10:05 am

igorfrankensteen wrote:Something which ought to be recognized, if it isn't already, is that just as there is such a thing as "walking pneumonia," that there is also such a thing as might be called "cheerful depression." Lots of people who suffer from depression, behave to the contrary, to most appearances.


Personally, I used to 'act' happy. Sometimes it even helped. I believe it's true that you can alter your own mood by thinking and acting a certain way. It's a sort of fooling your body. But mostly I did it because I didn't want people to know I had depression.

On the other hand, I believe there are those who have a type of depression that involves natural mood swings from high to low.
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Re: Depression’s physical source discovered

#19  Postby DavidMcC » Dec 19, 2016 8:42 pm

Sendraks wrote:FFS 5th Ape, at least quote a little bit of what you're linking to.

...

In this case, he obviously could have quoted by copy & paste, but I have found that some sites prevent that these days. Then, it can be hard work reading and typing it all out afresh.
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