Freud and Psychology

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#121  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 17, 2017 12:00 pm

Thommo wrote:[
AGW is no more closely associated with free market capitalism than it is with Soviet or Chinese state communism. Those countries have no more avoided industrialisation and the consequences than capitalist nations did. To say that a particular economic system is implicated in a result is to suggest that alternatives would produce different ones, which is little more than an ideological notion.

If only we had proper responsible ruling intelligentsia...nobody's tried that yet...remember that thread? lol.
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#122  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 17, 2017 12:02 pm

Thommo wrote:Why should experience carry more weight than a syllabus constructed by people who are a lot more knowledgeable?

Can you give an example of such a pairing of experience with something specific from Freud's work?


I'm not sure why you think the designers of the A'level psychology syllabus are more knowledgeable than the designers of the training course for NHS child psychoanalytical psychotherapists... :dunno:
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#123  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 17, 2017 12:12 pm

Thommo wrote:Can you give an example of such a pairing of experience with something specific from Freud's work?

Go on then I'll bite - but that's not really what I meant by "experience". When I first moved to Bristol from Gloucester my mother drove me and my girlfriend there in a car full of our belongings. When we arrived at the letting agent's to pick up the keys to our new yard they told us "sorry; it's fallen through; we're going to have to put you up somewhere else for a few nights." Stress. I then started obsessively worrying about how Steve Backley had only won silver in the Olympic javelin competition...I couldn't get it out of my head - couldn't concentrate on anything else for the next 30 mins or so. I believe Freud identified this as the defence mechanism he termed "displacement".
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#124  Postby Thommo » Dec 17, 2017 12:19 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thommo wrote:Why should experience carry more weight than a syllabus constructed by people who are a lot more knowledgeable?

Can you give an example of such a pairing of experience with something specific from Freud's work?


I'm not sure why you think the designers of the A'level psychology syllabus are more knowledgeable than the designers of the training course for NHS child psychoanalytical psychotherapists... :dunno:


I'm not sure I said they were. I think I suggested that they are more knowledgeable than you.

Am I wrong about that?
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#125  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 17, 2017 12:28 pm

ummmmmmmmmmm...errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...I guess I'd have to say not; although tbh I'm not sure regarding certain fields.
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#126  Postby Thommo » Dec 17, 2017 12:29 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thommo wrote:Can you give an example of such a pairing of experience with something specific from Freud's work?

Go on then I'll bite - but that's not really what I meant by "experience". When I first moved to Bristol from Gloucester my mother drove me and my girlfriend there in a car full of our belongings. When we arrived at the letting agent's to pick up the keys to our new yard they told us "sorry; it's fallen through; we're going to have to put you up somewhere else for a few nights." Stress. I then started obsessively worrying about how Steve Backley had only won silver in the Olympic javelin competition...I couldn't get it out of my head - couldn't concentrate on anything else for the next 30 mins or so. I believe Freud identified this as the defence mechanism he termed "displacement".


Ok, well thanks, that's a good example.

Do you think that his identifying a human behaviour is the same as justification for his theories (note: a theory being an explanatory framework for the observations that allows prediction)?

Let me give an example. Freud's theory of psychosexual development states that humans go through five phases: Oral, anal, phallic, latent and genital and that disorders (and also other conditions no longer considered disorders) develop as a result of over or under indulgence in these phases that leads to non standard processing of them. Do you understand that the retrospective fitting of his theories from the data rather than prediction of the data from the theories is hugely significant here?

Nobody would deny that babies do explore their bodies and interact with the world in a largely sequential pattern. That is observation, and Freud was certainly a keen observer. The criticism and failure of Freud arises when it comes to Freud's explanation of the observations - of his theories. That pre-teen children are often apathetic regarding the opposite gender does not support Freud's explanation of why that is the case. Whilst he was among the first to systematise his reporting of this phenomenon he abjectly failed to tie it in any real way to his elaborate mental constructs like the Oedipus and Electra complexes.
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#127  Postby LucidFlight » Dec 17, 2017 12:45 pm

Oedipus Electra seems like an excellent name for a Tesla product, say, a bus or a tram.
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#128  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 17, 2017 1:01 pm

Right...well; I'll have a go at replying to your post Thommo, but TBH I find a lot of your language very ambiguous in this one so I'm struggling - probably my fault but you might have to explain a few things before we get to the bottom of it I think.

Thommo wrote:
Do you think that his identifying a human behaviour is the same as justification for his theories (note: a theory being an explanatory framework for the observations that allows prediction)?

What do you mean by identifying a human behaviour? Like if you see someone cleaning dishes and you call it "washing up" that's identifying a human behaviour? If you are referring to the displacement example that is a theory which allows predictions.

Let me give an example. Freud's theory of psychosexual development states that humans go through five phases: Oral, anal, phallic, latent and genital and that disorders (and also other conditions no longer considered disorders) develop as a result of over or under indulgence in these phases that leads to non standard processing of them. Do you understand that the retrospective fitting of his theories from the data rather than prediction of the data from the theories is hugely significant here?

No; sorry. I think it does both. I'm not advocating his stage theory of psychosexual development however at this juncture.

Nobody would deny that babies do explore their bodies and interact with the world in a largely sequential pattern. That is observation, and Freud was certainly a keen observer. The criticism and failure of Freud arises when it comes to Freud's explanation of the observations - of his theories. That pre-teen children are often apathetic regarding the opposite gender does not support Freud's explanation of why that is the case. Whilst he was among the first to systematise his reporting of this phenomena he abjectly failed to tie it in any real way to his elaborate mental constructs like the Oedipus and Electra complexes.

I wasn't lol (OT). I don't know what his explanation for that phenomenon was - and perhaps it is a failing of his that he failed to tie it in with Oedipus/Electra.
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#129  Postby Thommo » Dec 17, 2017 1:54 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Do you think that his identifying a human behaviour is the same as justification for his theories (note: a theory being an explanatory framework for the observations that allows prediction)?

What do you mean by identifying a human behaviour? Like if you see someone cleaning dishes and you call it "washing up" that's identifying a human behaviour? If you are referring to the displacement example that is a theory which allows predictions.


Yes, washing up is an example of a human behaviour. And so is thinking. It is a thing that humans do, although since I'd rather not get into the objections surrounding that which aren't really relevant I'll just point out that speech is a behaviour and Freud's theories (and necessarily any comparison of multiple people) are derived from what they say about what they were thinking.

In this instance Freud observed that when stressed a number of his patients reported thinking intensely about subjects, objects or actions that were not the cause of the stress, and he called this displacement. This is what you described from your own experience and that is fine as far as it goes.

However, in Freudian psychology displacement has a theoretical role that is far more extensive than that simple classification (which is based on observation). Freud asserted a causative role for displacement in the formation of neuroses, he asserted connections with dream distortion, sexual attraction to one's mother and explained it all as part of a conflict between his (invented) parts of the mind - the id, ego and superego.

The point is that Freud started with that kernel of truth and then developed the theory around it. Because of that the kernel of truth is not evidence for the alleged framework. It fits not because it's a consequent prediction, but because he designed the theory that way.

Simple example: If I say that demons do not like it when people face up to their problem and thus cause people to displace their anxiety this does not make the observation of someone displacing their worries into evidence of demons.

Keep It Real wrote:
Let me give an example. Freud's theory of psychosexual development states that humans go through five phases: Oral, anal, phallic, latent and genital and that disorders (and also other conditions no longer considered disorders) develop as a result of over or under indulgence in these phases that leads to non standard processing of them. Do you understand that the retrospective fitting of his theories from the data rather than prediction of the data from the theories is hugely significant here?

No; sorry. I think it does both. I'm not advocating his stage theory of psychosexual development however at this juncture.


This is what is known as the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. If you fit your theory to some specific results, those results are not evidence of the theory. When you "bake in" a specific result, it is in no way surprising that you find that result.

This has a lot of religious analogues (and as ever the flaw really lies in the process of reasoning, not the specific result). It's like saying "Why do trees at northern latitudes often have needles that stay all year around?" is adequately explained by "Because God wants trees at northern latitudes to have needles that stay all year around.". In fact it offers no explanation at all and makes no prediction about what would be expected of trees growing at comparable latitudes in the Southern hemisphere. The result is simply baked in. Permitting this as evidence of God would be circular, just as permitting displacement as evidence of Freud's wider theories is.

I would guess that it is broadly in this sense Fallible made her point about Freud's work and religion.
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#130  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 17, 2017 2:25 pm

Thommo wrote:
However, in Freudian psychology displacement has a theoretical role that is far more extensive than that simple classification (which is based on observation). Freud asserted a causative role for displacement in the formation of neuroses, he asserted connections with dream distortion, sexual attraction to one's mother and explained it all as part of a conflict between his (invented) parts of the mind - the id, ego and superego.

Hmmm...well we've all pretty muched trashed the id/ego/superego model in this thread so far we're all on the same page ATM; and I certainly don't think sexual attraction to one's mother ever happens except for extremely rarely...however I'm not that averse to the idea of displacement occurring in dream distortion (totem and taboo) and even perhaps in the genesis and manifestation of some psychosese (based largely on my own introspective analysis of my historic psychosese). Also this rings true to me:

Displacement can also act in a what looks like a 'chain-reaction', with people unwittingly becoming both victims and perpetrators of displacement. For example, a man is angry with his boss, but he cannot express this properly, so he hits his wife. The wife, in turn, hits one of the children, possibly disguising this as a "punishment" (rationalization).


The point is that Freud started with that kernel of truth and then developed the theory around it. Because of that the kernel of truth is not evidence for the alleged framework. It fits not because it's a consequent prediction, but because he designed the theory that way.

I don't really understand where you're coming from with this TBH Thommo. Darwin observed the Galapagos wildlife; then developed the theory of evolution based on those observations...so that it fits those observations....maybe I'm being thick :dunno:


Simple example: If I say that demons do not like it when people face up their problem and thus cause people to displace their anxiety this does not make the observation of someone displacing their worries into evidence of demons.

Yeah I get you there - and the apparent compartmentalised and polarised nature of id/ego/superego seems a bit like demons...except that they are rooted in a perception of neurons; not exactly Leprechauns down the bottom of the garden, and perhaps should not be taken so literally.....maybe just viewed as analogous modelling of our decision making/cognitive processes.

This is what is known as the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. If you fit your theory to some specific results, those results are not evidence of the theory. When you "bake in" a specific result, it is in no way surprising that you find that result.

This has a lot of religious analogues (and as ever the flaw really lies in the process of reasoning, not the specific result). It's like saying "Why do trees at northern latitudes often have needles that stay all year around?" is adequately explained by "Because God wants trees at northern latitudes to have needles that stay all year around.". In fact it offers no explanation at all and makes no prediction about what would be expected of trees growing at comparable latitudes in the Southern hemisphere. The result is simply baked in. Permitting this as evidence of God would be circular, just as permitting displacement as evidence of Freud's wider theories is.


I think we're basically tackling this in the earlier part of the post. TBH right now the only things I'm certain I thoroughly disagree with about Freud's work are sexual attraction toward one's mother/father and psychological repression to the unconscious. Crikey!
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#131  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 17, 2017 2:32 pm

Oh yeah and that human's are purely motivated by sex too. There are probably more issues as well....must be a bit mentally exhausted I'm afraid...
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#132  Postby Thommo » Dec 17, 2017 4:42 pm

Keep It Real wrote:I don't really understand where you're coming from with this TBH Thommo. Darwin observed the Galapagos wildlife; then developed the theory of evolution based on those observations...so that it fits those observations....maybe I'm being thick :dunno:


Yes, and he predicted a huge amount from those observations. When the predictions matched experimentation it was powerful confirmatory evidence, that's why we give him so much credit for his theories.

The unit of inheritance, the tree structure of life, common descent. Incredibly powerful explanatory tools that are taught in every high school biology class around the country. Conversely the theories and tools Freud developed aren't. We aren't really very concerned with the names and specifics of the species of finches and other animals that Darwin observed, it's the power of the theory of evolution by natural selection that endures. The power of Freud's theories like the theory of psychosexual development? Not so much.

Keep It Real wrote:I think we're basically tackling this in the earlier part of the post. TBH right now the only things I'm certain I thoroughly disagree with about Freud's work are sexual attraction toward one's mother/father and psychological repression to the unconscious. Crikey!


That's a profound part of Freud's ideas. For Freud this is the root of pretty much all human behaviour, although admittedly he was working from a somewhat idiosyncratic and much broader definition of "sexual" than most of us would recognise.
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Re: Freud and Psychology

#133  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 20, 2017 8:41 am

I remember asking my mother many years ago why psychoanalytic theory/practice is so disrespected and maligned by mainstream psychologists (in general); and she replied "because they're jealous".
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Re: Freud and Psychology

#134  Postby Fallible » Dec 20, 2017 8:44 am

Lol. :nono: For my part it’s much simpler - I don’t see the sense in it, mainly because he basically made it up, and as we learn more, the more apparent it becomes that his theories don’t hold true.
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Re: Freud and Psychology

#135  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 20, 2017 9:03 am

As if Freud is the only psychologist to contribute to psychoanalytic theory/practice. Eg Karen Horney and I really don't think talking about modern psychodynamic theory is OT given that is is often termed "Freudian thought".

She disagreed with Freud about inherent differences in the psychology of men and women, and she traced such differences to society and culture rather than biology


Not bad for circa 1930 I reckon :dunno:
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Re: Do you ever give money to street beggars?

#136  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 20, 2017 9:38 am

woops; wrong thread...
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Re: Freud and Psychology

#137  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 20, 2017 9:39 am

Fallible wrote:He claimed that if we let the id (made up)

Keep It Real wrote:Agreed. Basically non-existent imo.


Fallible wrote:the super ego (made up)

Keep It Real wrote:Well; I'd call it "the best of us" basically stuff derived from conscience and altruism; but it's not a compartmentalised monolithic entity as Freud would seem to suggest and isn't there to fight the big bad non-existent boogy man of the id so yeah - basically a redundant and meaningless term too.


I've had second thoughts about this. Much as the super ego can be conceptualised as being one's sense of morals/conscience the id can be conceptualised as being the base biological drives. The key bit is the "s"s on the end of "drives" and "morals" because otherwise it is easy to make the (imo) mistake of viewing the id (and ego and superego for that matter) as being localised physiological monolithic structures in the brain (eg a dodecahedroid golf ball size structure in the left frontal lobe) when in fact their location and physical form are not specified. Perhaps it was a mistake of Freud's to give the components of his model of personality such narrow and tight semantic labels because they can easily be misinterpreted, much as Shrunk pointed out earlier in the thread when he said how one of his teachers had said that one of the most common mistakes people make when interpreting Freud is to think that when he says "sex" he means "fucking".
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Re: Freud and Psychology

#138  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 20, 2017 10:59 am

Fallible wrote:Lol. :nono: For my part it’s much simpler - I don’t see the sense in it, mainly because he basically made it up, and as we learn more, the more apparent it becomes that his theories don’t hold true.


Some don't seem to; some do seem to.

He notes that a prominent critic of psychoanalysis and Freudian theory, Adolf Grunbaum, Ph.D., professor of the philosophy of science at the University of Pittsburgh, has expressed satisfaction that the new results, when added to previous evidence, show that fundamental psychoanalytic concepts can indeed be tested in empirical ways.


Freud's theory of unconscious conflict linked to anxiety symptoms in new U-M brain research
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Re: Freud and Psychology

#139  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 21, 2017 8:21 am

A consistent finding from the research is that patients who undergo psychoanalytic psychotherapy appear to be making considerable psychological gains long after treatment has ended. An increasing number of meta-analyses (such as Abbass et al, 2009; de Maat et al, 2009; Leichsenring and Rabung, 2008; Leichsenring et al, 2004) suggest that this is the case, with larger effect sizes found at follow-up than at the end of treatment. By contrast, the benefits of other therapies tend to decay over time (de Maat, Dekker, Schoevers et al, 2006; Hollon et al, 2005; Westen, Novotny, and Thompson-Brenner, 2004; excepting manualized treatments for specific anxiety conditions – see Westen et al, 2004).

Findings in relation to personality disorders are perhaps the most promising (such as Winston, 1994; Hellerstein et al, 1998; Town et al, 2011). A meta-analysis examining the efficacy of both psychoanalytic psychotherapy and CBT for personality disorder published in the American Journal of Psychiatry (Leichsenring and Leibing, 2003) showed pre- to posttreatment effect sizes of 1.46 for psychoanalytic psychotherapy and 1.0 for CBT. A study by Bateman and Fonagy (2008) showed that mentalization-based therapy (MBT – a psychoanalytic psychotherapy adapted for personality disorder) leads to enduring benefits five years after completion. At five-year follow up, 87% of patients who received ‘treatment as usual’ still met diagnostic criteria for borderline personality disorder, compared to 13% of patients who had received psychoanalytic therapy. There is as yet, no other treatment which yields such positive results for personality pathology.

There is also a slowly growing body of evidence which suggests that psychoanalytic psychotherapy is an effective treatment for major depressive disorder (e.g. Driessen et al, 2013) and for somatic disorders and medically unexplained symptoms (Abbas et al, 2008; 2009). Most recently, Leichsenring and Klein (2014) reviewed the evidence for psychoanalytic therapy for specific mental disorders in adults, meta-analysing 47 RCTs published between January 1970 and September 2013 that looked at the efficacy of psychoanalytic psychotherapy for specific mental disorders using treatment manuals and valid measures for diagnosis and outcome. The meta-analysis showed that psychoanalytic therapy is efficacious for many common (and diagnosable) mental disorders, including depressive disorders, anxiety disorders, personality disorders, eating disorders, post-traumatic stress disorder and substance-related disorder.

It should also be noted definitively that psychoanalytic psychotherapy does have scientific support. Sweeping assertions that psychoanalytic work lacks any scientific credibility can no longer stand up to scrutiny (such as Barlow and Durand, 2005). Perpetuating such assertions also does a disservice to patients. Further, psychoanalytic psychotherapy shows significantly strong effect sizes at long-term follow up. The evidence makes it clear that patients receive lasting benefits, which go well beyond the remission of symptoms.


https://www.bpc.org.uk/sites/psychoanalytic-council.org/files/FINAL%20Overview_Evidence_Base_Briefing.pdf

Considering this thread hasn't really been bumped since 2010 the earlier posts are fully understandable.
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Re: Freud and Psychology

#140  Postby nunnington » Dec 21, 2017 10:05 am

Keep It Real wrote:

I don't know if you know this fal but my mother is a retired child psychoanalytical psychotherapist working for the NHS. Her training involved the compulsory in-depth study Sigmund's work; as well as the more recent advances in the field by Anna and Melanie Klein; amongst others (and I bet they too got loads wrong but still...). AFAIK psychoanalytical psychotherapy is still the first line NHS treatment for psychologically troubled children in England.


I think this is true of the Tavistock, but the 'recent advances' also include figures such as Winnicott, Bowlby, and Fairbairn. But post-Freudian psychoanalysis made a big shift to object relations, although Freud sketched this out in his work on mourning. Was it you who mentioned Horney, as I think she started to correct Freud's emphasis on female envy, and pointed out for example, that some men envy women, including their bodies. If my memory is correct, Freud basically blanked this out.

But there have been a number of fusions in psychotherapy, so that we get for example the phenomenon of 'Kleinian Jungians', and many training courses have some psychoanalytic component. However, I couldn't say whether that means neat Freud, or the post-Freudians, probably both.
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