Memories in a dream

Spearthrower · #1 by **Spearthrower** » Jul 11, 2011 6:22 pm

I had no idea where to put this, so it's ended up here! If it's the wrong place, feel free to kick it wherever it would sit most comfortably.

It's not really for discussion, not really for seeking an explanation, but mostly just to share as an interesting occurrence. Of course, any of the above are fine and I'd be interested in any response.

Two nights ago I had a unique experience in a dream. Much of the prior plot is (typically) blurry, and I can't go into great narrative detail, but one thing made me wake up such was its unusualness, and disparity. In the dream, someone had accused me of something, and in the dream I peered into my memory and remembered actually doing it in great detail from a 1st person perspective. It was just like a real memory you bring to the surface. However, I know for sure its not a true memory, but for a few moments after I awoke (and my awakening was with great clarity not bumbling sleepiness), I actually couldn't be sure whether it was a real memory or not. The only way I could really tell was that the people involved in that memory had never met while I was there - they were from 2 different stages of my life. However, both in the dream, and for some time afterwards, it felt as strong and clear as any memory I could bring to mind now. In a strange way, it does now; although I assume it's the memory of a memory, so to speak - I am remembering the memory through the occurrence of it in the dream.

How odd our brains are to create these so thoroughly convincing details and stories that are not actually true.

palindnilap · #2 by **palindnilap** » Jul 12, 2011 11:48 am

Spearthrower wrote:I had no idea where to put this, so it's ended up here! If it's the wrong place, feel free to kick it wherever it would sit most comfortably.

It's not really for discussion, not really for seeking an explanation, but mostly just to share as an interesting occurrence. Of course, any of the above are fine and I'd be interested in any response.

Two nights ago I had a unique experience in a dream. Much of the prior plot is (typically) blurry, and I can't go into great narrative detail, but one thing made me wake up such was its unusualness, and disparity. In the dream, someone had accused me of something, and in the dream I peered into my memory and remembered actually doing it in great detail from a 1st person perspective. It was just like a real memory you bring to the surface. However, I know for sure its not a true memory, but for a few moments after I awoke (and my awakening was with great clarity not bumbling sleepiness), I actually couldn't be sure whether it was a real memory or not. The only way I could really tell was that the people involved in that memory had never met while I was there - they were from 2 different stages of my life. However, both in the dream, and for some time afterwards, it felt as strong and clear as any memory I could bring to mind now. In a strange way, it does now; although I assume it's the memory of a memory, so to speak - I am remembering the memory through the occurrence of it in the dream.

How odd our brains are to create these so thoroughly convincing details and stories that are not actually true.

I don't have any reference handy for that, but I have read once or twice in recent books that the great majority of our long-term memories were in fact memories of memories. Or in other words, that we can't bring an old memory to mind without potentially modifying it. Or still in other words, that our long-term memory works like a game of Chinese Whispers, which explains why it is not very reliable. And also why what you know to be a memory of a memory feels just like a memory.

Bribase · #3 by **Bribase** » Jul 12, 2011 12:07 pm

palindnilap wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:-Snippity snip.

How odd our brains are to create these so thoroughly convincing details and stories that are not actually true.

I don't have any reference handy for that, but I have read once or twice in recent books that the great majority of our long-term memories were in fact memories of memories. Or in other words, that we can't bring an old memory to mind without potentially modifying it. Or still in other words, that our long-term memory works like a game of Chinese Whispers, which explains why it is not very reliable. And also why what you know to be a memory of a memory feels just like a memory.

I'm not sure where the hypothesis originates from but I think many neuroscientists see the utility of dreams like this:

Your dreams are your brain's way of sorting through the experiences of your wakeful life and archiving the information that appears most relevant. The way that it does this is by recounting the mess of waking experiences and freely associating it with previous memories, that way the short term memory can be "dumped" and the memories that ought to be "stored" long term are kept because they are consistent with significant earlier memories. What we do when we experience dreams is to take this free association of memories and build a post hoc narrative around it.

That's my take on the hypothesis anyway. It makes sense to me because lots of times I, as I'd imagine many others have woken up with the narrative of a dream in perfect crystal clarity in my head, only to try and write it down or recount it to a friend and find that it makes no narrative sense without making up huge amounts of stuff to fill in the gaps where the storytelling brakes down.

EDIT:

I think it may have been Hennevin and Leconte in 1971.

http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/13/5/ ... pdf?ck=nck

Spearthrower · #4 by **Spearthrower** » Jul 12, 2011 2:31 pm

palindnilap wrote:
I don't have any reference handy for that, but I have read once or twice in recent books that the great majority of our long-term memories were in fact memories of memories. Or in other words, that we can't bring an old memory to mind without potentially modifying it. Or still in other words, that our long-term memory works like a game of Chinese Whispers, which explains why it is not very reliable. And also why what you know to be a memory of a memory feels just like a memory.

I can certainly recognise that as being true, even in my own personal experiences, and having witnessed it in others; the story grows in the retelling, and the memory grows in the recalling.

However, the dream memory I had was not possible - the 3 people in the memory were from different periods of my past (and weren't even present in the dream narrative), and the action that occurred was certainly not something I had ever done or experienced before (and wasn't even relevant to the dream narrative). Naturally, that doesn't mean my sleeping brain can't 'use its imagination' to conjure up plausible scenarios, but it's just odd how much I can still recognise it as feeling analogous to any other memory.

Spearthrower · #5 by **Spearthrower** » Jul 12, 2011 2:33 pm

Bribase wrote:
I'm not sure where the hypothesis originates from but I think many neuroscientists see the utility of dreams like this:

Your dreams are your brain's way of sorting through the experiences of your wakeful life and archiving the information that appears most relevant. The way that it does this is by recounting the mess of waking experiences and freely associating it with previous memories, that way the short term memory can be "dumped" and the memories that ought to be "stored" long term are kept because they are consistent with significant earlier memories. What we do when we experience dreams is to take this free association of memories and build a post hoc narrative around it.

And yet what I have experienced here is effectively a wholesale fabricated construction of a long term memory that never happened, and whose only relevance was in the context of the dream.

It's hard to find a utility in that!

Grace · #6 by **Grace** » Jul 12, 2011 3:14 pm

Last night I had a dream too...

Steve · #7 by **Steve** » Jul 12, 2011 4:29 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Bribase wrote:
I'm not sure where the hypothesis originates from but I think many neuroscientists see the utility of dreams like this:

Your dreams are your brain's way of sorting through the experiences of your wakeful life and archiving the information that appears most relevant. The way that it does this is by recounting the mess of waking experiences and freely associating it with previous memories, that way the short term memory can be "dumped" and the memories that ought to be "stored" long term are kept because they are consistent with significant earlier memories. What we do when we experience dreams is to take this free association of memories and build a post hoc narrative around it.

And yet what I have experienced here is effectively a wholesale fabricated construction of a long term memory that never happened, and whose only relevance was in the context of the dream.

It's hard to find a utility in that!

It means you can change the way you think. I think this is the only way we can survive. There is the reality that exists and then there is what we make of it. I am sure you can see some use for being able to change your mind. Or maybe you only want me to change mine...

MattHunX · #8 by **MattHunX** » Sep 29, 2011 6:47 am

Hey, Spear!

I've had similar dreams, where my memories were false, and it didn't even occur to me, in the dream. I'm preparing a rant on some uncomfortable dreams of mine, at the moment. I have no idea why dreams are so...inconsistent.

Here's that old thread of mine: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/psych ... am#p356699

:cheers: