people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

Support for us people who are debilitated because of anomalistic experiences like synchronicity.

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people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#1  Postby musicmatters » Jul 04, 2019 2:44 pm

I suffer from a severe mental disorder called OCD. This is a post that I originally posted in the OCD forums. But through my research I learned that healthy people go through this too, so I thought it would be really helpful to post it here as well. I will like to thank you all for allowing me to post here, and I look forward to hearing your opinions. The original post is below:

As many of you may already know, many people with ocd and other mental illnesses suffer from strange and debilitating anomalistic experiences like strange coincidences and synchronicities that we can't explain. (Normal people deal with them too, but they're more severe in mental illness sufferers)

The experiences of these events feel telepathic and psychic like, or like we're manifesting it with our thoughts. For us with illnesses like OCD, they scare us and cause depression, distress, and anger. Many of us are fighting to be skeptic and rational thinkers when it comes to things like the paranormal, but these experiences keep happening and they're driving us insane.

What we go through is what psychologists call magical thinking, and we want to accept that and move on, but our experiences are so strange and debilitating that instead of moving on, our ocd progresses into a form of ocd called "ocd with psychotic features or ocd with poor insight"

Our ocd is so bad that we're on the same level in suffering as schizophrenics.

*I know this is true because of my own suffering and reading about the severe suffering of other OCD sufferers.*

During my research I found out that schizotypal and schizophrenia sufferers also go through these synchronistic/psychic like experiences.

And many theories have been brought forth like too much dopamine causing overactive pattern recognition, among other explanations. But the experiences happen so much and feel so real that the explanations don't add up and im left in severe mental pain.

Here's a link to the theory that dopamine causes overactive pattern recognition in mental illnesses like schizophrenia:

https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/en/pub ... fef843c3d5)/export.html

After searching and searching for more rational explanations, I realized that with these type of things it will be impossible to find a definite answer to.

So after awhile I realized that the best thing that could help me was by finding a place of like minded people who also go through these things as well so we can share similar experiences and find peace.

Before this forum my favorite ocd forum was "stuck in a door" (which is nolonger working) because it had many posts of people going through these experiences. And it really helped me out alot and helped me stay strong without worrying about finding an answer.

I'm creating this thread so that people who suffer from these experiences can have a place to to find relief by reading other people's experiences and to share their own experiences to help others.

I feel like this is one of the most debilitating things an ocd or any mentally ill person can go through. I say that because so many cultures around the world accept the things we go through as already true without trying to find other natural explanations first.

But many of us mentally ill people (despite our experiences) are fighting to be rational, critical thinkers and scientific minded, but because of so many people who believe in this stuff without investigation, it makes it painful for us, because it's hard to find rational dialogue about our experiences.

Many of us want to find a place where others share our experiences and a place where scientific minded people will try to give rational explanations to what we go through.

For many ocd issues the common advice is: accept it and walk away.
But there are certain things that are just too difficult to accept and walk away. To walk away from some things, first we need to know we're not along to give us strength. And this is one of those things.

And I hope this thread can be that place for those of us who are contemplating suicide because of these experiences.

Personally I suffer from many strange anomalistic synchronicity or psychic experiences. I will explain one of them below. Alot of times I feel horrible and like the only way out is suicide. So I look forward to reading other comments regarding these experiences to give me some type of peace.

Here's one of my regular experiences:

A scary intrusive thought hits me, and then my mind suddenly thinks that the random world "Bob" will be said to confirm that it's true. For some strange reason I can sense Bob being said. It's like the word Bob will be a sign of confirmation. Then in a split second the word Bob is actually said and I freak out and panic, because these strange things are not supposed to happen. This happens to me multiple times a day. And it's not just words, it other specific sounds and events.

I fight to be rational but It gets so bad that I feel that something supernatural is causing it to happen to destroy my life. And I have to immediately go to google to search for rational answers to get my rationality back.

It all happens in either a split second, or a 5 second window. First the intrusive thought then the intrusive thought of a sudden word or sound or the thought of something else happening to confirm it as a sign happens right after thinking it. Then the things I saw as a sign actually happens. It never fails.

Sometimes these signs will seem to be caused by my next action, for example: sometimes there is a strong intrusive thought of something bad or good happening and then a feeling that if I turn left or right to pick up something for example, then the specific noise will happen that will confirm the good or bad thought as true. Sometimes the noises feel like they're just waiting for your next action to synchronize it with the sound you're thinking of, so that the universe can show you that it all is real, and that it's goal is to hurt you. It feels as if you're manifesting it into reality.

Here's an interesting example story:

When me and my ex girlfriend were together we we're texting back and forth while she was at work. (We met online, she lived overseas, and we had never met in person) Suddenly while we're texting, she stops because she gets too busycat work. During this time I take a break myself and I go in the kitchen to get something to eat. So I can take a break with her. I left my phone on the bed. I leave for 2 or 3 hours. While I'm gone, it hits me that she's obviously gonna text me back before I get back into the room giving that I will be gone for so long. The longer I stay gone I start to hope that she has already texted me back. But then a scary ocd intrusive thought hits and says that she hasn't texted me back yet, but that she will do it as soon as I get back settled into my room, and that that will prove that we're all connected or something or that there's a psychic or law of attraction type thing happening with all of us and it will prove that a supernatural force is controlling everything.

After this intrusive thought I'm hoping that she has already texted me to prove this ocd type thought wrong.

But unfortunately when I get back into the room everything happened as I thought it. But with a horrible twist:

I entered my room. My phone was sitting on my bed on the charger. At this point I didn't know if I got a text from her or not. I was afraid to check it because I had a strong feeling that OCD was right and that she hadn't yet texted me back. A minute had gone by without me checking and I was really anxious.

I think I then checked it and confirmed that there was no text and found myself even more anxious because the OCD thought was beginning to manifest.

While severely anxious I put my phone down on my bed, and opened my dresser in my room and then while looking through my dresser this strong intrusive thought and feeling hits me that my girlfriend is gonna die and that when I turn left to reach for the item i was looking for, she will text me in that exact moment to confirm that it's true. And I pause for a moment in fear, and panic, and anger, and then after waiting for a good minute I try to challenge the OCD by angerly turning left and getting the item, and just like the OCD told me, she texted me! How in the hell does this stuff happen!? Right on cue as if it was destined! The whole time deep down inside from the moment the intrusive thought hit me while I was in the kitchen, I felt like the thought was correct, and that she wasn't gonna text me until I got into my room and settled in for at least 3-5 minutes.

Those moments happen alot faster and more consistant than the example above, but I just thought that was an important story to show the other ways it can manifest.

As I mentioned briefly before that story, it also happens with good positive thoughts. For example: You have a good positive thought about something in your life and then the OCD instrusively says that you're gonna hear something that's gonna confirm it as true, and that it will mean that something supernatural exists. And just as OCD predicted, the sound that it intrusively put into your mind is actually heard seconds later and in that moment you feel that that positive thought is tainted because you don't won't to believe something supernatural is controlling everything. It happens so often that It feels like a evil force is doing this to mess with you so you can't enjoy anything in life. It hits you so hard that you just break down and cry sometimes. It causes fits of rage and anger because you know this shouldn't be happening this often.

It's not just with sounds in the environment and words from people. But it's also with numbers on clocks and any other thing you can imagine. But it's just more constant with words and sounds from people and inanimate objects. I.e. telphone ringing, car horns, heating and air conditioning coming on and going off and radios and TV's. Etc.

I tried to find rational explanations for these things like the subconscious, intuition, confirmation bias, or just having psychotic breaks from the severe OCD. And in the past I started to feel better with these explanations, but then I realized that it was happening so much that non of the explanations added up anymore, and i realized it's not delusion, or any other explanation, but that it was actually happening.

A long time ago I read on another ocd forum someone explaining this experience as "automatic coincidence"

And that's the perfect explanation, it feels automatic as if the synchronicity was destined to happen in the sequence.

Or like you're manifesting it into reality. If there is a rational explanation then the only one at this point would be the one by psychologist Kirby Surprise who says that we control 3 to 6 percent of our environment and the other one being quantum entanglement which says that our minds are naturally connected through quatum mechanics.

Here's two YouTube videos of Kirby Surprise explaining his theory of synchronicity:

(Part 1): https://youtu.be/gwBluKDTnl0


(Part 2): https://youtu.be/9T-PRlmoIFY

Here's a rational perspective on quantum entanglement and psychic experiences:

https://www.yourtango.com/2018310374/wh ... re-psychic

And here's a link to a scientific study that says that we unconsciously react to events up to 10 seconds before they happen. And it’s called “Predictive Anticipatory Activity”

https://www.dailygrail.com/2014/03/scie ... ey-happen/

Many people experience these type of things with deja Vu, but I don't experience it that way, (or at least not that often) I just usually get a strong intrusive psychic sense of a word or sound from someone that I didn't choose to think of, and someone says it a second or 5 seconds later.

With these experiences I've been on the verge of suicide and getting closer and closer everyday because of the severe mental pain they cause.

The only reason I'm still alive is because of well known paranormal skeptics that I look up to like James Randi, Michael Shermer, Kirby Surprise, and Susan Blackmore among many others.

(James Randi's rational explanation for synchronicity/Psychic experiences):
https://youtu.be/xhx2T-ul3FE

(One of Susan Blackmore's discussions about the existence of the paranormal):
https://youtu.be/8pKcN2eTyIw

In an effort to better understand these experiences and provoke rational discussion I will also like to add that people who do drugs like weed and psychedelics also experience these type of things often. So is there a correlation with a brain suffering from mental illness and a brain that's high on drugs? From my research on drug users who have these experiences, my verdict is that there is and I suggest that we study these people.

What ever is in those drugs that's causing their brains to experience these things must be the same thing that's in the brain of a person with a mental illness.

Here's one of those posts by a drug user experiening this. It's from a marijuana support forum: https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/tel ... -d.283254/

Ironically after I calm down from these OCD/synchronicity attacks and I see a little rationality, I find myself facinated by all these experiences, because I wonder how is it possible for a simple brain to do all of these things!

If anybody else sufferers from these things please share and give me some type of peace that other people are in this fight with me.

My goal with this post is to find rational people who have dealt with these experiences in the past or who are also dealing with them currently, so we can look at the rational explanations I provided, and have rational discussions regarding what most likely is happening here so we can promote a more peaceful mind in sufferers. I'm mainly looking for skeptics who went through this before but who over came it and remained skeptics.

I look forward to hearing from many of you.

IF THIS POST WAS TOO LONG TOO READ THEN HERES THE SHORT SUMMARY:

I'm Debilitated and sometimes suicidal because of anomalistic experiences like synchronicity and psychic phenomenon and looking for support, and a rational discussion based off the scientific sources I provided. I'm mainly looking for skeptics who went through this before but who over came it and remained skeptics to give me strength to overcome it myself.

But I will like to add that although my rational side has been weakened by my illness, I'm still a rational thinker at heart, so I expect rational discussion here based on the sources I provided, thanks.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#2  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 04, 2019 6:23 pm

Just read the summary at the end musicmatters. A few times a month or so I have cause to say to myself "ooh, that was a big coincidence, haven't had one that size for (for example) a fortnight!" Hope that helps. I'll read the long version at some point most likely. And welcome to the forum!
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#3  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 04, 2019 6:29 pm

Thanks for sharing all this Jay. I know I can't be of any real help, and I doubt many people here will be able to offer much that you haven't already looked into and know well yourself cognitively, even if you can't persuade yourself of the 'rationality' of it.

For me, I would say there's something intriguing here between your brain knowing something and your mind knowing it. A lag in awareness that you are very sensitive to.

On the Wikipedia link about the neuroscience of free will, there's a useful image that may serve better than a rambling description by me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

Image

The text explaining this picture says:

On several different levels, from neurotransmitters through neuron firing rates to overall activity, the brain seems to “ramp up” before movements. This image depicts the readiness potential (RP), a ramping-up activity measured using EEG. The onset of the RP begins before the onset of a conscious intention or urge to act. Some have argued that this indicates the brain unconsciously commits to a decision before consciousness awareness....


So, although the specific topic in the link is about volition, such as making a decision, it also serves to highlight that there is a small period of time where the brain has already 'decided' on an action prior to the person becoming aware of that decision, or perhaps better that they believe they make a decision.

Perhaps, and I say this entirely hypothetically and not suggesting it is valid, you and people like you who suffer from some of these conditions have a more compressed lag between the brain processes and the mind's awareness, or some other interruption or ordering between them, such that you misperceive the actual order in which they happen. Essentially, the split second scenario you describe is happening, but the instigating word happened first, your brain caught it, generated the sense of impending doom which you sensed, then you became conscious of the instigation... but your perception of it reversed the order. Similarly, a deja vu literally has been seen before, moments ago by your brain, then your mind sees both the thing in the world and the 'memory' of your brain seeing it just before.

There's obviously a lot more in your post to talk about and respond to, but I don't want to go overboard right away, and I particularly don't want to be unhelpful or irritating. I have no background in the neurosciences other than general lay interest, but I have taken pretty much every psychotropic substance known to humanity specifically with the purpose of finding out what it did to me and its effects on my thought process, so I am very much aware of what the brain can do, and similarly skeptical like you that anything supernatural is occurring - I think the brain is a complex, sensitive piece of hardware, and even subtle errors can lead to quite bizarre and difficult to explain experiences.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#4  Postby laklak » Jul 06, 2019 5:04 am

It does sound a little DMTish. That stuff can seriously fuck with your head.

Brain chemicals, eh?
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#5  Postby musicmatters » Jul 20, 2019 8:16 pm

Thanks for all your comments so far. I'm just now seeing these comments cause I could of sworn I posted this on the debunk section. Could the moderators copy this post to the debunk section and also keep it here to?

@spearthrower you make alot of sense in what you're saying and I have heard similar theories before regarding the "word actually happening first but me forgetting it etc."

But the problem with that theory is that sometimes I will know things are about to happen or be said 5 or sometimes more seconds into the future. And sometimes it feels like I'm literally making it happen with my next action. It's really scary.

I have a few links from different forum users who my experiences are similar too. The difference is I have OCD and they seem to be healthy. I'm adding the links so we can realize that this is a very common thing for many people and so we can figure out what could be causing this in us.

Please check out these links:

(1.) https://www.reddit.com/r/Paranormal/com ... ychiclike/

(2.) https://www.reddit.com/r/LSD/comments/2 ... _happened/


(3.) https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/f ... ey-happen/

(4.) this last link is one from a user who not only describes these experiences perfectly but who also has a very interesting scientific theory on why these type of things happen:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/f ... paradoxes/
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#6  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 20, 2019 8:48 pm

musicmatters wrote:
But the problem with that theory is that sometimes I will know things are about to happen or be said 5 or sometimes more seconds into the future. And sometimes it feels like I'm literally making it happen with my next action. It's really scary.


Is it not plausible to you that this is exactly the error in transmission occurring in your brain? You may perceive 5 seconds have passed, but there's actually a time dilation whereby you don't sense the actual passage of time appropriately?


musicmatters wrote:I have a few links from different forum users who my experiences are similar too. The difference is I have OCD and they seem to be healthy. I'm adding the links so we can realize that this is a very common thing for many people and so we can figure out what could be causing this in us.

Please check out these links:

(1.) https://www.reddit.com/r/Paranormal/com ... ychiclike/

(2.) https://www.reddit.com/r/LSD/comments/2 ... _happened/

(3.) https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/f ... ey-happen/

(4.) this last link is one from a user who not only describes these experiences perfectly but who also has a very interesting scientific theory on why these type of things happen:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/f ... paradoxes/


I can't see any scientific theory there, only some conjectural ideas as we discussed above, and a reference of 'quantum' which, for me at least, usually signifies bunk.

The rest of the links, I personally wouldn't place much interest in because they're really just self-reported and not amenable to testing. A lot of the links you've posted are to fora where, presumably from the name and content of the forum, the members are predisposed to believe in the supernatural. For me, the supernatural can never hope to offer any explanation of anything - it's really the opposite and, at least in my experience, just indicates that people are employing a set of preconceptions they're applying to events, and quite possibly they're essentially fooling themselves.

However, I do not mean to suggest I am discounting your situation, there is no reason to disbelieve you that you have this sense or perception. For me, I would always be looking at mundane, natural explanations. As you've indicated you have severe OCD, and as OCD is characterised as a disorder expressly affecting the thought processes of the person suffering with it, I would suggest that the senses of synchronicity or advance knowledge of things are most likely a facet of that disorder rather than actually being anything like an ability to see the future. There would be numerous problems with the latter idea there, not least that the entire universe would need to be wholly deterministic which would essentially disqualify all reason and intelligence meaning it would no longer even be worth considering any such problem from a rational perspective. It's one of those situations where either the mundane explanation which appears to offer sufficient explanatory power is acceptable, or else quite literally everything we know must be tossed out, and we can never really hope to know anything. Doesn't appear to offer any utility to me.

Have you spoken to a mental health professional about these incidents? It might be worth seeing what current neuroscience has to offer.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#7  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 20, 2019 8:51 pm

musicmatters wrote:Thanks for all your comments so far. I'm just now seeing these comments cause I could of sworn I posted this on the debunk section. Could the moderators copy this post to the debunk section and also keep it here to?


Incidentally, I don't think there's any reason to move it to debunking given that you've said you suffer from this, so it's hardly like you're willfully propounding some make-believe you want others to buy into; presumably you just want to know.

Unfortunately, I don't think we have anyone here who can really offer anything even approaching professional help. There used to be a few professional psychiatrists here many years ago, but I don't recall any neuroscientists.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#8  Postby Destroyer » Jul 20, 2019 10:22 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
musicmatters wrote:Thanks for all your comments so far. I'm just now seeing these comments cause I could of sworn I posted this on the debunk section. Could the moderators copy this post to the debunk section and also keep it here to?


Incidentally, I don't think there's any reason to move it to debunking given that you've said you suffer from this, so it's hardly like you're willfully propounding some make-believe you want others to buy into; presumably you just want to know.

Unfortunately, I don't think we have anyone here who can really offer anything even approaching professional help. There used to be a few professional psychiatrists here many years ago, but I don't recall any neuroscientists.

Shrunk still visits. He is a psychiatrist.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#9  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 21, 2019 12:04 am

Destroyer wrote:
Shrunk still visits. He is a psychiatrist.


Shrunk was one of those I was talking about, but I've not seen any of his posts so I assumed he was no longer here. Maybe he'll happen upon this thread.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#10  Postby Ironclad » Jul 21, 2019 12:06 am

I can't be of much use here, but wish you well; welcome to the forum. :)
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#11  Postby laklak » Jul 21, 2019 1:52 am

Spearthrower wrote: It's one of those situations where either the mundane explanation which appears to offer sufficient explanatory power is acceptable, or else quite literally everything we know must be tossed out, and we can never really hope to know anything. Doesn't appear to offer any utility to me.


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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#12  Postby musicmatters » Jul 23, 2019 12:41 am

@spearthrower I guess it could be possible. But did you check out the source in my original post for Dr Kirby surprise? I find his theory very interesting and scientific. I would love to hear your opinion as well as others on it.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#13  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 23, 2019 5:14 am

musicmatters wrote:@spearthrower I guess it could be possible. But did you check out the source in my original post for Dr Kirby surprise? I find his theory very interesting and scientific. I would love to hear your opinion as well as others on it.



Sorry, no I didn't. It's a 2 part video that's an hour and a half long. I have little attention span for film at the best of times, and I don't really have the inclination to watch an hour and a half to find out some small snippet of content you mean. You could time stamp the section if you would like?

Otherwise, assuming he just means synchronicity like other people use the concept, then to me it's just a case of pattern-seeking, meaning-creating ape sees pattern and creates meaning. A selection bias of counting the hits and forgetting the misses.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#14  Postby musicmatters » Jul 23, 2019 5:02 pm

No actually he has a rational explanation that I hope is true. He went through it as well and came up with his theory after. Actually he challenges the supernatural explanations for this phenomena and tries to put it in the realm of materialistic science. He's basically saying that with the current understanding of materialistic science it allows for us to create these events ourselves through pattern recognition and by being able to control 3-6 percent of our environment naturally. He says it's us who are causing the events, and it has alot to do with the subconscious processing. I find it very interesting because many time it does feel like I'm actually causing the events to happen with my own thoughts instead of just predicting them. It's as if I'm putting them in the air myself.

And it never happens when I consciously force it, it's always when I'm in a subconscious state. It's like while in this subconscious state something tells me something is going to happen next and then it's all automatic and happens in the next seconds. But you never can force it. Everybody who has gone through this have said similar things, so it's worth looking into for a good discussion.

Kirby explains it alot better than me. But his explanation is very interesting and one of the only reasons I've not ended my life over this. I would love for a rational person like you and others here to check it out and let me know your opinion so we can have a discussion over it.

I also look forward to hearing from more people who have experienced these things wheather through drug use, mental illness or just occasionally with a healthy mind.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#15  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 23, 2019 7:04 pm

musicmatters wrote:But you never can force it.


Well, naturally. That alone removes it from being subject to testing. Like Spearthrower said, it allows you to count the hits and ignore the misses. You started out calling it a debilitating condition, and a few posts later you're bringing out your secret weapon, a youtube video suggesting it's a mysterious power instead of a debilitating condition. I've seen that movie, already.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#16  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 23, 2019 8:44 pm

musicmatters wrote:
Kirby explains it alot better than me. But his explanation is very interesting and one of the only reasons I've not ended my life over this. I would love for a rational person like you and others here to check it out and let me know your opinion so we can have a discussion over it.


Well, the synopsis you gave sounds similar to what I was noting before about synchronicity: pattern-seeking is something fundamental to our psychology, we do it really well... too well in fact, but then from an evolutionary perspective it tends to be better to run away 10 times from predators falsely conceived to be lurking in the shadows than it is to fail to spot 1 predator that actually is there. While pattern-seeking is present in all animals both predator and prey, it does seem part of the run-away cognitive specialization our ancestors fell into; it's why we see Jesuses on burned toast, a face on the Moon, and pyramids on Mars.

Couple that with 'selective observation' where we count the infrequent hits and ignore the reams of misses... there are hundreds of examples of this in all aspects of life, but I find it most telling in people who gamble, even just the lottery. Those numbers they picked had a special meaning to them, and they WON! Conveniently forgetting the two hundred other times they played those numbers and didn't win and the fact that, on aggregate, they've lost money.

The problem is that we all obviously trust ourselves to know what we're thinking, to recollect our thoughts and thought processes accurately, but in reality, our awareness of our thoughts and impression of our thought processes are flimsy and wouldn't pass muster in any methodical scientific study, making it a very difficult field to talk about rationally when so much of it is self-reported, qualitative and subjective.

If you could get a more restricted time stamp so I don't have to listen to 20 or 30 minutes of fluff, I'd be happy to listen to the relevant bits. But I am not good at maintaining attention listening unless there's some kind of visual stimulus coinciding with it; even then, I just don't watch TV or movies because my mind wanders off very quickly.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#17  Postby musicmatters » Jul 24, 2019 1:31 am

I tried to find a good time stamp for you. But man this video was so interesting all the way through that I had trouble finding one good time stamp. So what I will tell you is to start at 3:27, and I promise you that you will enjoy the whole video from there. But in case you don't, then just listen for 10 minutes starting from 3:27, and if it doesn't have your interest after those 10 minutes then please just skip around until you find what you want to hear. I promise you that you will find what you want to hear. While listening to it I noticed that it gets better and better after 3:27. This man is on to something major that goes way beyond simple pattern recognition. And I think the rational scientific community needs to take notice so we can deep discussions regarding the mind and the strange experiences it creates.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#18  Postby Hermit » Jul 24, 2019 9:35 am

Two minutes and 50 seconds into the first of Kirby Surprise's Youtube clips he mentions that he got his doctor's degree from the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco. This is what the Wikipedia says about it:
The institute offers interdisciplinary and cross-cultural graduate studies in psychology, counseling, philosophy, religion, cultural anthropology, transformative studies and leadership, integrative health, women's spirituality, and community mental health. Many courses combine mainstream academic curriculum with a spiritual orientation, including influences from a broad spectrum of mystical or esoteric traditions. Although the Institute has no official spiritual path, some of its historical roots lie among followers of the Bengali sage Sri Aurobindo.

So, on to Sri Aurobindo. After turning away from Indian nationalism and politics, he became a spiritualist, a yogi, a guru and yeah, a sage.

OK, so Kirby Surprise is into parapsychology, a metaphor for sneaking supernaturalism into discussions concerning the human psyche. Not that this was a surprise to me. There is nothing materialistic about the assertion that one's subconscious (ignoring the fact that there's no such thing as "the subconscious") can affect material goings-on in the real world in any way.

Thus ended my interest in what Doctor Kirby Surprise has to say about anything.
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#19  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 25, 2019 11:54 am

musicmatters wrote:I tried to find a good time stamp for you. But man this video was so interesting all the way through that I had trouble finding one good time stamp. So what I will tell you is to start at 3:27, and I promise you that you will enjoy the whole video from there. But in case you don't, then just listen for 10 minutes starting from 3:27, and if it doesn't have your interest after those 10 minutes then please just skip around until you find what you want to hear. I promise you that you will find what you want to hear. While listening to it I noticed that it gets better and better after 3:27. This man is on to something major that goes way beyond simple pattern recognition. And I think the rational scientific community needs to take notice so we can deep discussions regarding the mind and the strange experiences it creates.



Ok, I listened for 10 mins or so from there.

I am not seeing where the science is meant to be here. The chap simply talks about an experience he had, then conjectures from it.

To me, his conjecture is fine up to the final leap he makes.

So he had been talking about mental powers being able to affect the world. He thinks of a movie where the antagonist ends up destroying a house. He's sitting in a car looking at a house, and imagines what that would feel like to be able to control matter with his mind. A bulldozer knocks over the house. For a moment, he's unaware that a bulldozer did it and believes it was his mind that affected the world. He then realizes it was a bulldozer.

From that he concludes, ultimately, that it was actually his mind that affected the world.

There's obviously a problem there.

His argument started well enough. Our brains are our central processing units: they take all the information provided by our senses - our way of interfacing with the world - and construct a coherent internal representation of it all. However, the internal representation isn't the actual world, it's the map of the terrain.

It's after that he leaps into wilful speculation that isn't remotely justified.

Think about it. There was a guy driving that bulldozer who had previous jobs that day, who drove to that site, who got up in the morning, who was assigned this job days or weeks before, payment had been made, the job had been granted planning permission, the necessary paperwork had been filled out, and the decision had been made... all preceding this chap sitting in his car watching the house get knocked down. To me, his 'reasoning' is not only lacking in some rather elementary causal comprehension but appears intently solipsistic.

For me, there's a really obvious mundane simplification here rather than his mind having caused a past and sequence of events to have led to a moment right there just for him to be conscious of it.

Quite simply, while he wasn't consciously aware of the bulldozer, actually his senses were picking up sufficient information for him for his subconscious to be alerted and partially aware of it prior to him starting to think about it. Actually, his subconsciousness had registered a bunch of stimuli (subsonic vibrations, for example) and correspondingly his conscious thought had been given a cue but he had yet to make the inference consciously.

So the order of events is actually i) incoming sensory data ii) subconscious starts putting incoming information together iii) conscious thought processes cued iv) conscious thought about house being knocked down v) house knocked down vi) assumption that mind caused house to be knocked down.

It's about as mystical therein as hearing an ambulance's siren, then being amazed when the ambulance races into view... but I was just thinking about ambulances and there one is, so I must have made it happen with my mind!
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Re: people debilitated by anomalistic experiences

#20  Postby musicmatters » Jul 26, 2019 2:14 am

Good point. I thought about it that way too. I try to rationalize all these events by bringing it back to the subconscious. If there's a rational explanation, then it's all down to the subconscious. But sometimes it just seems like things were impossible to know with just the subconscious. This article is saying something very interesting regarding seemly psychic events and the subconscious mind. It's similar to what you just said: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.strang ... ities/amp/
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