Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#81  Postby CookieJon » Feb 04, 2013 8:56 pm

jamest wrote:
Thommo wrote:
jamest wrote:
That's not true. For example, I would guess that there's an 80% chance that you'll be eating between 1200 and 1330, today. I would also guess that there's a 99% chance that you're wearing clothes as you read this, but only a 1% chance that these are women's clothes.

Human behaviour is very predictable in many respects.


That's a non sequitur, probability can be applied incorrectly to roulette wheels just as well as it can be applied incorrectly to humans, as you've done here. I could guess there's an 80% chance the ball will land on 1 if I like, or more reasonably that it will land on one of the segments from 1-30.

On a roulette wheel, all outcomes of an event are equally likely.

Well, a roulette wheel sitting on a wonky table then?
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#82  Postby Onyx8 » Feb 04, 2013 9:05 pm

Even a roulette wheel sitting level. There is a relationship between where the wheel is when the ball is released to where the ball ends up. IIRC there was a case where two people acting in concert could increase the odds of winning by having one of them watch the release and communicate that to the other while the second one placed a bet before the ball hit the first stud which is the cut off point. They got caught.
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#83  Postby Reeve » Feb 04, 2013 9:26 pm

jamest I don't know if anyone has suggested this. I've just found this thread and can't be bothered to read 5 pages yet: But you should read Penrose's books The Emperor's New Mind and Shadows of the Mind if you want to get an idea of what Penrose's hypothesis is.
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#84  Postby Reeve » Feb 04, 2013 9:29 pm

It's fascinating to me that people just dismiss Penrose's ideas without even understanding what it is that they're dismissing. Such as on the so-called "RationalWiki"

Edit: Also the rational wiki is not up to date with the science of Penrose's idea. Tegmark has not conclusively dealt the hypothesis a finishing blow yet.

http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/Cosmology160.html
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#85  Postby jamest » Feb 04, 2013 10:56 pm

Reeve wrote:jamest I don't know if anyone has suggested this. I've just found this thread and can't be bothered to read 5 pages yet: But you should read Penrose's books The Emperor's New Mind and Shadows of the Mind if you want to get an idea of what Penrose's hypothesis is.

I appreciate the links, but here I'm more concerned with whether a statistical analysis of human behaviour has facilitated a mathematical expression of such (using equations), to the extent that it can be compared to the mathematics of quantum behaviour. Such would lend much weight to theories from the likes of Penrose, of course.

So, has the various statistical evidence of human behaviour exhibited any kind of enduring pattern sufficient to enable an all-encompassing mathematical expression of such? Probably not. Does this mean that we don't have enough statistical evidence of human behaviour, or does the existing evidence already suggest that no such patterns exist? Or, is an objective study of human behaviour just impossible? If so, why? Etc..

Now we're in the realms of psychology, more useful responses might be forthcoming.
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#86  Postby tolman » Feb 04, 2013 11:42 pm

jamest wrote:I appreciate the links, but here I'm more concerned with whether a statistical analysis of human behaviour has facilitated a mathematical expression of such (using equations), to the extent that it can be compared to the mathematics of quantum behaviour.

What would a 'statistical analysis of human behaviour' actually involve?
What would be chosen to look at?
How would things be measured?
How would external influences be accounted for?

jamest wrote:Such would lend much weight to theories from the likes of Penrose, of course.

Why of course?

How could your 'statistical analysis' provide any information which could meaningfully point to Penrose's hypothesis being a better match than, for example, someone considering the brain to be a highly complex, continually self-reprogramming analogue computer, existing in and interacting with a body which distracted it and influenced its moods in numerous ways

Wouldn't you need to have some idea what kinds of 'statistics' might be predicted by (or consistent with) various ideas about how the brain/mind works?

jamest wrote:So, has the various statistical evidence of human behaviour exhibited any kind of enduring pattern sufficient to enable an all-encompassing mathematical expression of such? Probably not. Does this mean that we don't have enough statistical evidence of human behaviour, or does the existing evidence already suggest that no such patterns exist? Or, is an objective study of human behaviour just impossible? If so, why? Etc..

Now we're in the realms of psychology, more useful responses might be forthcoming.

Sounds more like we're in the realms of asking about the mathematics of human behaviour without giving much clue as to what that is supposed to mean.
Whether that is a result of the asker having no clue themselves will presumably become apparent if they persist in asking woefully ill-defined questions.
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#87  Postby jamest » Feb 04, 2013 11:44 pm

Onyx8 wrote:Even a roulette wheel sitting level. There is a relationship between where the wheel is when the ball is released to where the ball ends up. IIRC there was a case where two people acting in concert could increase the odds of winning by having one of them watch the release and communicate that to the other while the second one placed a bet before the ball hit the first stud which is the cut off point. They got caught.

The relevant/enigmatic point about quantum behaviour is that any possible outcome appears to be contingent upon the intrinsically unpredictable nature of quanta themselves. Conversely, balls and wheels are not deemed to be intrinsically unpredictable, which is why the odds of a specific number coming-up - all external circumstances being equal - are precisely 36-to-1. Of course, you can change those external circumstances (incline the wheel, for instance), but any change in the likelihood of any particular event happening, is not something we can solely attribute to the intrinsic properties of the wheel and/or ball.

Hence, the significance of finding a mathematical analysis which did manage to map human behaviour with quantum behaviour, would be that such had provided evidence for the purely intrinsic properties of humankind, or consciousness.
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#88  Postby Ainur » Feb 05, 2013 12:10 am

campermon wrote:
jamest wrote:Maybe a retitle is in order: Will this thread as a whole revolve?


:mrgreen:

Now this is in the science thread, an interesting paper here; http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9907009.pdf which argues that brain states are best modeled classically.

:thumbup:


This is constructive and one way to begin discussion on this topic. Unlike the Woo cops who's perspective is tainted and all they offer is BS.

It is not my intent to derail this topic and in fact I haven't been the posters who have.

If you want to understand something you need to make the time to understand it. We have no start point on a topic such as this with regard to a common understanding. I offer brain wave frequency - and the observer as a starting point
I gave information for those so inclined to do the research because, based on what I've seen on this site so far there is a serious lack of curiosity in gaining a greater understanding. They cry woo without even knowing what I'm talking about. Yet for me to offer this requires a level of understanding that obviously many on this site do not possess. Therefore I would hope they might actually research the topic instead of pulling something out of their collective asses.
Waves: Brain Wave Frequency is generally discussed in the venacular of waves.
Greek: These waves are commonly named in Greek terms, Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta
Military: The US military has, for some years now, been researching and experimenting with the use of brain wave frequencies in technology and communication, communication that requires sending and receiving. All this information is available on the internet.....look it up.
So many here on this site assume a common understanding on a wide variety of topics, and the instant that something comes up that they haven't heard about they cry woo. Therefore in order to go through the tedious task of bringing some up to speed I suggested doing the research yourself.

I ask what is curious about the effect of the observer? Well it really isn't understood that well, but it is an effect that is known to exist - The observer has an impact. That being the case, and considering the topic: Quantum probability and human choice and behavior, well this topic smacks of quantum consciousness.
Yet what is known about that topic is far less than what there is to learn. (Not for some of you that is, who seem to know everything)
Consciousness has been discussed for thousands of years, more recently we've aquired better tools (science) to look into what consciousness might be perhaps beyond the theoretical approach of the past. That technology is based in frequency - energy waves, therefore the reference to brain waves.

Some of you have taken offense to the infinite potential of a particle. You haven't spent much time on this I take it? What is all matter made up of......Energy What is different between a particle and a wave? How is a particle collapsed into a wave?
We learn more by asking more. Could the effect of the observer be that which collapses a particle? Is consciousness the observer?
Human behavior is grounded in the fields of neuro-science, endocrinology, and genetics all of which can be understood from a classical understanding of mathematics. Whether there exists a means to mathematically map that out is yet to be achieved, yet theoretically I believe that may be a possibility.
Consciousness is suggested to be explored in an understanding of the quantum world, but until consciousness is measured...and subsequently accepted as a tangible thing...it will remain an excercise in frustration.
Choice also, is harder to put our fingers on. We can make assumptions that choice is derived from the cognitive functions of the brain and the behavioral expression of our genetics, but in this we risk falling into a conversation on Free Will, and if the Threads on Free Will on this site are any indication of where that conversation would end, I'd rather not wallow in that convoluted mess. Zombies and what not....rediculous.
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#89  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 05, 2013 12:19 am

Fap fap fap.
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#90  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 05, 2013 12:21 am

jamest wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
jamest wrote:How do frequencies of the brain, whatever they amount to, relate to a mathematical comparison of quantum behaviour with that of humans?



How about starting with this frequencies of the brain wibble? All I've seen so far is something about Lines, Greek, gofuckinglookeverythingupandjumpatmycommand.

I don't know if you buy into that kind of thing; but it sure ain't physics.

I don't buy into things I'm not aware of. I am annoyed though that this thread has been moved to pseudoscience on the back of unsubstantiated claims made by another member. I thought that the OP asked a reasonable question which could be discussed within the realms of known physics and studies of human behaviour. If the mods wanted to take any action, they should merely of exported that member's posts [and corresponding replies] to another thread. I wonder if I can change their minds?


I agree - honestly asked questions, and consequent willingness to follow wherever the evidence takes you is what science is all about.
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#91  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 05, 2013 12:23 am

tolman wrote:
Ainur wrote:Energy as a particle containing infinite potential? How hard is this to understand?

I guess it's 'easy to understand' for someone with a vague woo-ish idea of what 'infinite potential' means'

For someone to talk about particles of energy having infinite potential in a thread specifically mentioning quantum mechanics suggests nothing other then a profound ignorance of physics on their part.
Unless one considers a profound ignorance of the history of physics as being a distinct kind of ignorance.



Those energy particles, innit?
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#92  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 05, 2013 12:26 am

Onyx8 wrote:
Ainur wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:Where on the internet do I look for the frequency information? I am interested, could you point me in the correct direction?

I googled "brain frequency" and came up with 54,900,000 results, which ones are relevant to what you are saying?


Could you point me to the evidence for what you claim? Thanks, I am sure you are busy.


I have pointed =======> Waves, Greek, Military.
What claims? Mine or yours? You have preceived claims, which may or may not have anything to do with my offer of direction to information that is readily available on the internet.

54,900,000. I'm sure you know how to narrow your search. First try what you think I'm talking about. Then ask yourself; Am I looking to attack or understand?



I googled that and wound up with a lot of discussion on the greek financial crisis. Is that relevant to what you are saying? Instead of me guessing what you are talking about, why don't you tell me?

I am not interested in attacking, but how can I understand if all you will do is tell me to go look it up? Whatever 'it' is remains unclear.

You were talking about brain frequencies and reception and broadcast of them were you not?

You'll note there is no disdain coming from me here, just honest questions.



I have the disdain. It's not for the topic, but the behavior. If someone wishes to contend something about the natural world, they must have got their information from somewhere. Their source might well not be credible, so I think it's only fair to request to see that source. When the person then starts getting abusive and ranting about how everyone is X, Y, and certainly Z because they've been asked to show a source, then the disdain begins. Too many snake oil salesmen, too little time.
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#93  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 05, 2013 12:34 am

Reeve wrote:It's fascinating to me that people just dismiss Penrose's ideas without even understanding what it is that they're dismissing. Such as on the so-called "RationalWiki"

Edit: Also the rational wiki is not up to date with the science of Penrose's idea. Tegmark has not conclusively dealt the hypothesis a finishing blow yet.

http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/Cosmology160.html



For a start, that hasn't happened here. I also doubt that RW dismisses it 'without understanding it' - more like it has a single paragraph on it then 2 citations about falsifications of the Orch OR model

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_co ... er_Penrose

http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/3049/

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/11/4219.full.pdf+html


If people are not understanding it - there's the very real possibility that it's incomprehensible because it's wrong. When the authors still haven't addressed dozens of criticisms of their claims decades later, one has to wonder whether they understand it either.
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#94  Postby Ainur » Feb 05, 2013 1:10 am

Spearthrower wrote:Fap fap fap.


If the shoe fits --- then it becomes difficult to look in the mirror. Considering the quality of your posts on this and other threads you certainly have the time of offer something other than contempt. What do you have to offer to the conversation?
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#95  Postby tolman » Feb 05, 2013 1:20 am

jamest wrote:The relevant/enigmatic point about quantum behaviour is that any possible outcome appears to be contingent upon the intrinsically unpredictable nature of quanta themselves. Conversely, balls and wheels are not deemed to be intrinsically unpredictable, which is why the odds of a specific number coming-up - all external circumstances being equal - are precisely 36-to-1. Of course, you can change those external circumstances (incline the wheel, for instance), but any change in the likelihood of any particular event happening, is not something we can solely attribute to the intrinsic properties of the wheel and/or ball.

Hence, the significance of finding a mathematical analysis which did manage to map human behaviour with quantum behaviour, would be that such had provided evidence for the purely intrinsic properties of humankind, or consciousness.

How, pray, would one 'mathematically' distinguish between the behaviour of an intensely complex self-reprogramming living analogue computer influenced by all manner of corporeal and external inputs, where one had incomplete knowledge of the 'state' and the 'program' at any instant in time, and the behaviour of such a thing with some undefined amount of added Quantum Sauce?
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#96  Postby tolman » Feb 05, 2013 1:25 am

Ainur wrote:Some of you have taken offense to the infinite potential of a particle.

I don't think many people have 'taken offence' at your 'infinite potential'.

I suspect most people just find the meaninglessness of the phrase funny, especially given the context.
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#97  Postby Onyx8 » Feb 05, 2013 2:19 am

Ainur wrote:
Waves: Brain Wave Frequency is generally discussed in the venacular of waves.
Greek: These waves are commonly named in Greek terms, Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta
Military: The US military has, for some years now, been researching and experimenting with the use of brain wave frequencies in technology and communication, communication that requires sending and receiving.


Ah, thank you for that. Wouldn't you agree that it was way more efficient to actually tell me what you were thinking than asking me to guess or to look up Waves, Greek, Military?

So, what is it you wish to say about these things?
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#98  Postby josephchoi » Feb 05, 2013 2:32 am

what the fuck are you saying, ainur? You talk your shit up but you don't present it. in fact the only thing you present was that the waves are named based on greek letters. This is like reading a pointlessly elaborate storyline setup only for it to end with "and then the bartender said to the horse 'why the long face?'"

FUCK
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#99  Postby Beatrice » Feb 05, 2013 3:08 am

Ainur wrote: Military: The US military has, for some years now, been researching and experimenting with the use of brain wave frequencies in technology and communication, communication that requires sending and receiving.

Oh yes! there's even a documentary with George Clooney about that:The Men Who Stare at Goats :popcorn:
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Re: Quantum probability and human choice & behaviour

#100  Postby Ainur » Feb 05, 2013 3:30 am

And this is why this site will always be a home for recycled ignorance. Enjoy your party.
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