Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#41  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 10, 2014 12:23 pm

r.c wrote:I've skimmed through the paper. I'm not a biology student ( no where close) but the paper was easy to read and understand. The first requirement in science when you're proposing something is a proper definition. The following definition was provided in the paper to differentiate between disappointment and regret. I'll try to paraphrase as best as I can.
1. Disappointment is when the result obtained is not as good as what you had expected, and in addition you had no choice in the matter.
2. Regret is when you encounter an unfavorable result and you are aware that this happened directly as a result of your actions, and also that a different action would have resulted in a better outcome.
The key difference here is the awareness that your actions had a role to play in the outcome.
The evidence for the claim that rats displayed regretful behavior comes from two sources:
i. Direct observation of the rat's behavior
ii. Observation of the Orbitofrontal cortex (OFC). Humans with damage to this region do not express regret.

The following was the regret-inducing situation used in the study :
The rat first encountered a low cost (less wait time)/high reward (choice of treat) (let's call it the first stop) which it skipped, and then encountered a high-cost (more wait time)/low reward ( not a favorable treat) (second stop). The rats were then observed for regretful behavior. The rats had been trained and each rat had developed a threshold wait time.

There were two controls used for the above situation : i) a control for the sequence of offers, ii) a control for the rat's actions.
In control (i), the only difference from the experiment was that, at the first stop the rat didn't skip the high reward and then went on to the second stop. Control (i) served to differentiate between potential regret-inducing situations from situations that would just cause disappointment.
In control (ii), the rat encountered the same sequence, but at the first stop the wait time had been increased to a value greater than the rat's threshold time. So, by skipping it, the rat had actually made the right decision. This control served to differentiate a good decision (skipping the treat when the wait was too long) from a bad decision.

By looking at both the rat's behavior and the response in the rat's OFC and how they differed from the observations made in the controls, the conclusion that the rats expressed regret was made.

Obviously, I've skipped a lot of the detail. Reading the full paper is definitely worth it. I found it very interesting. I felt the authors did a very good job to back up their claims.

Edited for grammar and clarity.

r.c., you do realise that there is a big difference between experimental technique (which I was not criticising) and conclusions (which I was). I thought people would understand that. Apparently not. :roll:
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#42  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 10, 2014 12:30 pm

r.c wrote:I think David, these paras might help

Occasionally the rats decided not to wait for a good option and moved on, only to find themselves facing a bad option - the scientists called this a regret-inducing situation.

In these cases the rats often paused and looked back at the reward they had passed over.

They also made changes in their subsequent decisions, being more likely to wait at the next zone and rushing to eat the reward that followed. The scientists say such behaviour is consistent with the expression of regret.

When experiments were carried out where the rats encountered bad options without making incorrect decisions, such behaviour was not present.

Of course they didn't have to regret something that wasn't there!
The researchers had a control experiment where the results were same but didn't include decision making (I haven't read the actual paper but this is what I gathered). The behavior was different. It means that the decision making process played a part in the rat's behavior, which is what characterizes regretful behavior.


D'uh! Sure they felt regret, but only at the fact that they could not have it all, ffs! Regret need have nothing to do with mistakes, just lack of rewards.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#43  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 10, 2014 12:47 pm

jamest wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
jamest wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:... Actually, this isn't the first time jamest has tried to hitch himself to me, but there's nothing much I can do about it. :(

Your grandkids will love that anecdote.

A. I will not have grandkids.
B. It was not an anecdote.

You're right. Telling people that I want to hitch myself to you isn't an anecdote. It's just bullshit. But your grandkids would have loved it regardless.

OK, I didn't realise that you thought I meant the word, "hitch" in a romantic sense. I did not. I meant it in an intellectual sense, so this whole spat was a big misunderstanding.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#44  Postby r.c » Jun 10, 2014 12:53 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
D'uh! Sure they felt regret, but only at the fact that they could not have it all, ffs! Regret need have nothing to do with mistakes, just lack of rewards.


I honestly don't understand with what aspect of the paper you have a problem with. Maybe if you could pinpoint the flaw in the method/conclusion below, it would be helpful.
Control (ii) of the experiment deals with the doubts you have about the conclusion.
In the control experiment, the rats skip the reward at stop 1 (favorable treat delivered) and go on to stop 2 which has a low reward.
The same thing happens in the regret inducing experiment.
The only difference is the wait time. In the control experiment the reward at stop 1 was delivered after the threshold of the rat's waiting time, whereas in the regret-inducing experiment the reward was delivered before the threshold wait time. In both cases they lacked the rewards, but expressed regret like behavior and the neural activity in the OFC only in the second experiment.
So, it couldn't have been the lack of rewards that triggered this reaction as there were no rewards in both the control and the regret-inducing instance.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#45  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 10, 2014 1:17 pm

r.c wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
D'uh! Sure they felt regret, but only at the fact that they could not have it all, ffs! Regret need have nothing to do with mistakes, just lack of rewards.


I honestly don't understand with what aspect of the paper you have a problem with. Maybe if you could pinpoint the flaw in the method/conclusion below, it would be helpful.
Control (ii) of the experiment deals with the doubts you have about the conclusion.
In the control experiment, the rats skip the reward at stop 1 (favorable treat delivered) and go on to stop 2 which has a low reward.
The same thing happens in the regret inducing experiment.
The only difference is the wait time. In the control experiment the reward at stop 1 was delivered after the threshold of the rat's waiting time, whereas in the regret-inducing experiment the reward was delivered before the threshold wait time. In both cases they lacked the rewards, but expressed regret like behavior and the neural activity in the OFC only in the second experiment.
So, it couldn't have been the lack of rewards that triggered this reaction as there were no rewards in both the control and the regret-inducing instance.

OK, so the rats expressed regret at being tricked, but only if there was time to do so?
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#46  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 10, 2014 2:34 pm

Regretting a "bad decision" implies that the rats blame themselves if they don't get a reward! Not sure they've demonstrated that! Maybe they blame the researchers, for tricking them, and show it if they find there might have been time after all to try other routes.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#47  Postby r.c » Jun 10, 2014 4:53 pm

The time of delivery of rewards was psuedo random. The decision to stay at a stop or leave was made by the rats. I just skimmed through the experimental details. I can send you the paper, if you don't have access to it.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#48  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 10, 2014 5:18 pm

r.c wrote:The time of delivery of rewards was psuedo random. The decision to stay at a stop or leave was made by the rats. I just skimmed through the experimental details. I can send you the paper, if you don't have access to it.

You seem to think that the details you supplied of the experiment answer the point, when they don't. Regret does not imply self-blame for "bad decisions" in the way claimed in the OP. When they move on too soon and find they are thereby trapped out of some reward, why is it not frustration at losing out on some reward, even if it was partly a result of bad luck with their timing.
Is an unlucky choice a "bad decision"?
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#49  Postby Mr.Samsa » Jun 15, 2014 7:05 pm

chairman bill wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:I don't think it's regret over a bad choice, I think it's the rat trying to have it both ways - the second choice AS WELL AS the first choice!
And your evidence to support your thinking is what precisely?


I'm pretty sure David hasn't read the article so you might be waiting a long time. The researchers explicitly ruled out David's explanation so even if the researchers are wrong in their inferences, we at least know for a fact that David is wrong.

chairman bill wrote:
EDIT: If there were any bad choices, it was by the neuroscientists who tried to work out what was in the rats' minds.
Could you explain that? Maybe with reference to the literature?


The weird part here is that he's ruling out the entire field of psychology...

DavidMcC wrote:
r.c wrote:I think David, these paras might help

Occasionally the rats decided not to wait for a good option and moved on, only to find themselves facing a bad option - the scientists called this a regret-inducing situation.

In these cases the rats often paused and looked back at the reward they had passed over.

They also made changes in their subsequent decisions, being more likely to wait at the next zone and rushing to eat the reward that followed. The scientists say such behaviour is consistent with the expression of regret.

When experiments were carried out where the rats encountered bad options without making incorrect decisions, such behaviour was not present.

Of course they didn't have to regret something that wasn't there!
The researchers had a control experiment where the results were same but didn't include decision making (I haven't read the actual paper but this is what I gathered). The behavior was different. It means that the decision making process played a part in the rat's behavior, which is what characterizes regretful behavior.


D'uh! Sure they felt regret, but only at the fact that they could not have it all, ffs! Regret need have nothing to do with mistakes, just lack of rewards.


As R.C explains, their control conditions included the same sequences of food being presented (i.e. both options were present) but no regret-like responses were displayed in the rat.

What explanation do you have for the significant differences in conditions where food on both options is available and present, yet the regret-like responses are only manifested when they leave a good option for a bad one?

DavidMcC wrote:Regretting a "bad decision" implies that the rats blame themselves if they don't get a reward! Not sure they've demonstrated that! Maybe they blame the researchers, for tricking them, and show it if they find there might have been time after all to try other routes.


The experiment specifically sets it up so that the regret-like behavior only occurs when following a bad choice made by the rat, i.e. it is contingent on recognising their own behavior causing the outcome. Obviously we already knew that rats were capable of that, as well as mental time travel and meta-awareness, but this just puts it together in a regret situation and successfully demonstrates the experience of regret in rats.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#50  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 17, 2014 4:31 pm

Mr.Samsa wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:I don't think it's regret over a bad choice, I think it's the rat trying to have it both ways - the second choice AS WELL AS the first choice!
And your evidence to support your thinking is what precisely?


I'm pretty sure David hasn't read the article so you might be waiting a long time. The researchers explicitly ruled out David's explanation so even if the researchers are wrong in their inferences, we at least know for a fact that David is wrong.

chairman bill wrote:
EDIT: If there were any bad choices, it was by the neuroscientists who tried to work out what was in the rats' minds.
Could you explain that? Maybe with reference to the literature?


The weird part here is that he's ruling out the entire field of psychology...

DavidMcC wrote:
r.c wrote:I think David, these paras might help

Occasionally the rats decided not to wait for a good option and moved on, only to find themselves facing a bad option - the scientists called this a regret-inducing situation.

In these cases the rats often paused and looked back at the reward they had passed over.

They also made changes in their subsequent decisions, being more likely to wait at the next zone and rushing to eat the reward that followed. The scientists say such behaviour is consistent with the expression of regret.

When experiments were carried out where the rats encountered bad options without making incorrect decisions, such behaviour was not present.

Of course they didn't have to regret something that wasn't there!
The researchers had a control experiment where the results were same but didn't include decision making (I haven't read the actual paper but this is what I gathered). The behavior was different. It means that the decision making process played a part in the rat's behavior, which is what characterizes regretful behavior.


D'uh! Sure they felt regret, but only at the fact that they could not have it all, ffs! Regret need have nothing to do with mistakes, just lack of rewards.


As R.C explains, their control conditions included the same sequences of food being presented (i.e. both options were present) but no regret-like responses were displayed in the rat.

What explanation do you have for the significant differences in conditions where food on both options is available and present, yet the regret-like responses are only manifested when they leave a good option for a bad one?

DavidMcC wrote:Regretting a "bad decision" implies that the rats blame themselves if they don't get a reward! Not sure they've demonstrated that! Maybe they blame the researchers, for tricking them, and show it if they find there might have been time after all to try other routes.


The experiment specifically sets it up so that the regret-like behavior only occurs when following a bad choice made by the rat, i.e. it is contingent on recognising their own behavior causing the outcome. Obviously we already knew that rats were capable of that, as well as mental time travel and meta-awareness, but this just puts it together in a regret situation and successfully demonstrates the experience of regret in rats.

Mr.Samsa, I don't thionk you understood my point. My point was that the experimenters missed the possibility that the rats might only express their regret at not getting a reward when they gave themselves the time to do so.
Now do you get it?(This goes for chairman bill as well, who sees to think that it is a question of evidence for my interpretation, when it is actually a lack of evidence for the experimenters' interpretation.
You two should learn to think more clearly. I am not saying that my interpretation is demonstrated by the evidence, only that theirs is not, and that mine is a less anthropocentric one.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#51  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 17, 2014 4:31 pm

Mr.Samsa wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:I don't think it's regret over a bad choice, I think it's the rat trying to have it both ways - the second choice AS WELL AS the first choice!
And your evidence to support your thinking is what precisely?


I'm pretty sure David hasn't read the article so you might be waiting a long time. The researchers explicitly ruled out David's explanation so even if the researchers are wrong in their inferences, we at least know for a fact that David is wrong.

chairman bill wrote:
EDIT: If there were any bad choices, it was by the neuroscientists who tried to work out what was in the rats' minds.
Could you explain that? Maybe with reference to the literature?


The weird part here is that he's ruling out the entire field of psychology...

DavidMcC wrote:
r.c wrote:I think David, these paras might help

Occasionally the rats decided not to wait for a good option and moved on, only to find themselves facing a bad option - the scientists called this a regret-inducing situation.

In these cases the rats often paused and looked back at the reward they had passed over.

They also made changes in their subsequent decisions, being more likely to wait at the next zone and rushing to eat the reward that followed. The scientists say such behaviour is consistent with the expression of regret.

When experiments were carried out where the rats encountered bad options without making incorrect decisions, such behaviour was not present.

Of course they didn't have to regret something that wasn't there!
The researchers had a control experiment where the results were same but didn't include decision making (I haven't read the actual paper but this is what I gathered). The behavior was different. It means that the decision making process played a part in the rat's behavior, which is what characterizes regretful behavior.


D'uh! Sure they felt regret, but only at the fact that they could not have it all, ffs! Regret need have nothing to do with mistakes, just lack of rewards.


As R.C explains, their control conditions included the same sequences of food being presented (i.e. both options were present) but no regret-like responses were displayed in the rat.

What explanation do you have for the significant differences in conditions where food on both options is available and present, yet the regret-like responses are only manifested when they leave a good option for a bad one?

DavidMcC wrote:Regretting a "bad decision" implies that the rats blame themselves if they don't get a reward! Not sure they've demonstrated that! Maybe they blame the researchers, for tricking them, and show it if they find there might have been time after all to try other routes.


The experiment specifically sets it up so that the regret-like behavior only occurs when following a bad choice made by the rat, i.e. it is contingent on recognising their own behavior causing the outcome. Obviously we already knew that rats were capable of that, as well as mental time travel and meta-awareness, but this just puts it together in a regret situation and successfully demonstrates the experience of regret in rats.

Mr.Samsa, I don't thionk you understood my point. My point was that the experimenters missed the possibility that the rats might only express their regret at not getting a reward when they gave themselves the time to do so.
Now do you get it?(This goes for chairman bill as well, who sees to think that it is a question of evidence for my interpretation, when it is actually a lack of evidence for the experimenters' interpretation.
You two should learn to think more clearly. I am not saying that my interpretation is demonstrated by the evidence, only that theirs is not, and that mine is a less anthropocentric one.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#52  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 17, 2014 4:34 pm

Also, Mr.S, it is nonsense to suggest that I am throwing away the whole of HUMAN psychology. If you have interveiwed any of the rats about WHAT and WHEN they regret in their tests, please let us know.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#53  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 17, 2014 4:53 pm

BTW, the only reason for my late reply is that I have not visited this site for a number of days.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#54  Postby Mr.Samsa » Jun 18, 2014 9:37 am

DavidMcC wrote:
Mr.Samsa, I don't thionk you understood my point. My point was that the experimenters missed the possibility that the rats might only express their regret at not getting a reward when they gave themselves the time to do so.
Now do you get it?(This goes for chairman bill as well, who sees to think that it is a question of evidence for my interpretation, when it is actually a lack of evidence for the experimenters' interpretation.


Two points:

1) it doesn't matter whether regret was only demonstrated when given the time to do so, that's still regret

2) they did control for time. Regret was shown at shorter and longer delays.

DavidMcC wrote:You two should learn to think more clearly.


Thinking clearly for me obviously isn't a problem, the disagreement comes from the fact that I've read and understood the paper whereas you haven't.

DavidMcC wrote:I am not saying that my interpretation is demonstrated by the evidence, only that theirs is not, and that mine is a less anthropocentric one.


Except you have no way of knowing whether it's anthropocentric unless you test it.

DavidMcC wrote:Also, Mr.S, it is nonsense to suggest that I am throwing away the whole of HUMAN psychology. If you have interveiwed any of the rats about WHAT and WHEN they regret in their tests, please let us know.


Why would verbal reports be relevant? They're rarely the primary measure and rarely used to make claims about the processes of the mind in psychology. Tests like the one used in this experiment are the standard.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#55  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 19, 2014 3:07 pm

Mr.Samsa wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
Mr.Samsa, I don't thionk you understood my point. My point was that the experimenters missed the possibility that the rats might only express their regret at not getting a reward when they gave themselves the time to do so.
Now do you get it?(This goes for chairman bill as well, who sees to think that it is a question of evidence for my interpretation, when it is actually a lack of evidence for the experimenters' interpretation.


Two points:

1) it doesn't matter whether regret was only demonstrated when given the time to do so, that's still regret


You obviously didn't read what I posted, because never said they didn't show regret.
2) they did control for time. Regret was shown at shorter and longer delays.
...

But still they were not always giving themselves the time to show their regret. It's not a questuiin of absolute delay times, because, as r.c. said, the rats were choosing for themselves how long to wait. If they chose a long enough time, their regret would manifest itself. If not, it was on to the next place, no time to fret. Simple, really. :roll:
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#56  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 19, 2014 3:12 pm

Mr.Samsa wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
Mr.Samsa, I don't thionk you understood my point. My point was that the experimenters missed the possibility that the rats might only express their regret at not getting a reward when they gave themselves the time to do so.
Now do you get it?(This goes for chairman bill as well, who sees to think that it is a question of evidence for my interpretation, when it is actually a lack of evidence for the experimenters' interpretation.


Two points:

1) it doesn't matter whether regret was only demonstrated when given the time to do so, that's still regret

2) they did control for time. Regret was shown at shorter and longer delays.

DavidMcC wrote:You two should learn to think more clearly.


Thinking clearly for me obviously isn't a problem, the disagreement comes from the fact that I've read and understood the paper whereas you haven't.

DavidMcC wrote:I am not saying that my interpretation is demonstrated by the evidence, only that theirs is not, and that mine is a less anthropocentric one.


Except you have no way of knowing whether it's anthropocentric unless you test it.

...

I simply meant that the experimenters seemed to be imposing their own (human) understanding of what the rats were regretting, based on a dubious interpretation of what the rats were worried about.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#57  Postby Mr.Samsa » Jun 20, 2014 6:07 am

DavidMcC wrote:
You obviously didn't read what I posted, because never said they didn't show regret.


Except you did of course, as that's your whole position in this thread:

DavidMcC wrote:I don't think it's regret over a bad choice, I think it's the rat trying to have it both ways - the second choice AS WELL AS the first choice! That is more likely to be the rat's POV than this nonsense about regretting bad choices!


You also described their explanation as an "anthropocentric" one, which (since "regret" is the anthropomorphic quality) strongly suggests that you're rejecting the existence of regret in the rats.

DavidMcC wrote:
2) they did control for time. Regret was shown at shorter and longer delays.
...

But still they were not always giving themselves the time to show their regret. It's not a questuiin of absolute delay times, because, as r.c. said, the rats were choosing for themselves how long to wait. If they chose a long enough time, their regret would manifest itself. If not, it was on to the next place, no time to fret. Simple, really. :roll:


Their waiting times were controlled by the experimenters based on behavioral laws - they adjusted how long the rats would choose the wait. And regret was shown in both conditions, contradictory to your claims.

DavidMcC wrote:
I simply meant that the experimenters seemed to be imposing their own (human) understanding of what the rats were regretting, based on a dubious interpretation of what the rats were worried about.


But none of their explanation required their own interpretation. They demonstrated experimentally that their conclusion was the correct one. It wasn't an interpretation of the data, the conditions were set up explicitly to test their hypothesis.
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Re: Rats shown to feel regret over bad decisions

#58  Postby DavidMcC » Jun 20, 2014 12:34 pm

Mr.Samsa wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
You obviously didn't read what I posted, because never said they didn't show regret.


Except you did of course, as that's your whole position in this thread:

DavidMcC wrote:I don't think it's regret over a bad choice, I think it's the rat trying to have it both ways - the second choice AS WELL AS the first choice! That is more likely to be the rat's POV than this nonsense about regretting bad choices!


...

Nonsense, it was careless reading on your part, Mr.S. Note that I said "regret OVER A BAD CHOICE", not simply "regret". Now do you understand?
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