Reasoning and/or emotions

Discussion about how emotions work with reason

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Reasoning and/or emotions

#1  Postby WeirdPattern2.0 » Nov 25, 2016 3:23 pm

Hello. This is my first post, I hope I'm post this in the right place.

A friend linked me the following video on facebook and I'm looking for a place to seriously discuss the issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXDw73rToPE&t=0s

Even though the video is very hyped and presents little evidence, it still got me thinking.I consider myself a strong rational thinker (& atheist), but then what about my emotions?
I can't deny having emotional parts in my brain (amygdala, limbic system, ...), yet they can go against my reason. This poses a contradiction as I can't both be completely reasonable without amputation my emotional brain regions.

Would like to hear some thoughts on this.
WeirdPattern2.0
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 3

Country: Sweden
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#2  Postby Weaver » Nov 26, 2016 8:34 pm

Nobody can be perfectly objective within their own head.

This is precisely why the scientific process was developed - to isolate out subjective mistakes and misinterpretations, and to settle instead on objective reality.

(not philosophy "reality" bullshit - but simply what is actually happening in the world.)
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 49
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#3  Postby Macdoc » Nov 26, 2016 11:06 pm

take the s out

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXDw73rToPE&t=0s[/youtube]
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 11422
Age: 70
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
 
Birthday
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#4  Postby newolder » Nov 26, 2016 11:13 pm

Macdoc wrote:take the s out

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXDw73rToPE&t=0s[/youtube]

and everything after the E
Geometric forgetting gives me loops. - Nima A-H
User avatar
newolder
 
Name: Albert Ross
Posts: 3843
Age: 6
Male

Country: Feudal Estate number 9
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#5  Postby Macdoc » Nov 26, 2016 11:18 pm

Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 11422
Age: 70
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
 
Birthday
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#6  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 26, 2016 11:20 pm

"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27119
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#7  Postby kiore » Nov 26, 2016 11:45 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:This thread somehow got partially duplicated:
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/psychology/reasoning-and-or-emotions-t53461.html



!
GENERAL MODNOTE
now merged.
Folding@Home Team member.
Image
What does this stuff mean?
Read here:
general-science/folding-home-team-182116-t616.html
User avatar
kiore
Senior Moderator
 
Posts: 15463

Country: In transit.
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#8  Postby jamest » Nov 27, 2016 12:54 am

Weaver wrote:Nobody can be perfectly objective within their own head.

This is precisely why the scientific process was developed - to isolate out subjective mistakes and misinterpretations, and to settle instead on objective reality.

I'm hoping beyond hope you realise that your first statement contradicts & undermines your second?

Nobody has @to do science@ in order to become an objective being. That possibility obviously exists IF science was possible in the first instance.

(not philosophy "reality" bullshit - but simply what is actually happening in the world.)

Yeah, sure, because science has taught you that there is no reality beyond your worldly experiences. Bullshit indeed.
They came, they saw, they concurred.
User avatar
jamest
 
Posts: 16111
Male

Country: England
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#9  Postby Macdoc » Nov 27, 2016 2:22 am

So Jamest what are your "unworldly" experiences?

Do you have "unparticles", the unneutrino and the unHiggs in in your unreal world. :coffee:
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 11422
Age: 70
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
 
Birthday
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#10  Postby ughaibu » Nov 27, 2016 3:15 am

WeirdPattern2.0 wrote:I can't deny having emotional parts in my brain (amygdala, limbic system, ...), yet they can go against my reason. This poses a contradiction
You haven't demonstrated a contradiction. In particular, reasoning and emotion appear to be orthogonal to each other, so it's difficult to see what kind of thing would constitute a contradiction.
How about offering an example and arguing that it entails a contradiction?
ughaibu
 
Posts: 4068

Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#11  Postby Weaver » Nov 27, 2016 6:20 am

jamest wrote:
Weaver wrote:Nobody can be perfectly objective within their own head.

This is precisely why the scientific process was developed - to isolate out subjective mistakes and misinterpretations, and to settle instead on objective reality.

I'm hoping beyond hope you realise that your first statement contradicts & undermines your second?

Nobody has @to do science@ in order to become an objective being. That possibility obviously exists IF science was possible in the first instance.

(not philosophy "reality" bullshit - but simply what is actually happening in the world.)

Yeah, sure, because science has taught you that there is no reality beyond your worldly experiences. Bullshit indeed.


Fucking stop. Keep the philosopho-babble bullshit in the fucking cave where it belongs.

No, a single person cannot be utterly objective within their own head - that's why a key component of the scientific process is fucking repeatability by independent experimenters.

Don't go dragging bullshit philosophy-language usage into a discussion on science. It doesn't belong, and it simply confuses the discussion. If this discussion were about philosophy, it would be in the fucking philosophy forum. It isn't - so just go back there with your crap.
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 49
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#12  Postby Fallible » Nov 27, 2016 11:11 am

WeirdPattern2.0 wrote:Hello. This is my first post, I hope I'm post this in the right place.

A friend linked me the following video on facebook and I'm looking for a place to seriously discuss the issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXDw73rToPE&t=0s

Even though the video is very hyped and presents little evidence, it still got me thinking.I consider myself a strong rational thinker (& atheist), but then what about my emotions?
I can't deny having emotional parts in my brain (amygdala, limbic system, ...), yet they can go against my reason. This poses a contradiction as I can't both be completely reasonable without amputation my emotional brain regions.

Would like to hear some thoughts on this.


What about your emotions? They're there because they've got their part to play in your functioning in the world. What you want to avoid is acting completely from your emotions. There are lots of different facets of life. For most of them, what you want is a balance of emotion and reason/logic. For a few of them, you want to get as close to only reason/logic as you can possibly get, however I would contend that emotion will still play a part, for example, in terms of empathy and therefore ethics. In my view, you never want to operate on nothing but emotion.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 43936
Age: 44
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#13  Postby surreptitious57 » Nov 27, 2016 12:34 pm

I try to keep any negative emotion to a minimum as too much is bad for me and so I am now very
good at containing mine. Voluntary isolationism is good for the spirit. Apparently men do not like
being isolated as they might not like their thoughts. Which then begs the question : what exactly
are they thinking? I make peace with mine. You do with yours as you choose. I offer up no advice
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57
 
Posts: 8528

Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#14  Postby igorfrankensteen » Nov 27, 2016 5:44 pm

Fallible wrote:
WeirdPattern2.0 wrote:Hello. This is my first post, I hope I'm post this in the right place.

A friend linked me the following video on facebook and I'm looking for a place to seriously discuss the issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXDw73rToPE&t=0s

Even though the video is very hyped and presents little evidence, it still got me thinking.I consider myself a strong rational thinker (& atheist), but then what about my emotions?
I can't deny having emotional parts in my brain (amygdala, limbic system, ...), yet they can go against my reason. This poses a contradiction as I can't both be completely reasonable without amputation my emotional brain regions.

Would like to hear some thoughts on this.


What about your emotions? They're there because they've got their part to play in your functioning in the world. What you want to avoid is acting completely from your emotions. There are lots of different facets of life. For most of them, what you want is a balance of emotion and reason/logic. For a few of them, you want to get as close to only reason/logic as you can possibly get, however I would contend that emotion will still play a part, for example, in terms of empathy and therefore ethics. In my view, you never want to operate on nothing but emotion.


This is close to what I think as well. I would adjust it a bit.

Emotions EXIST. They must be included in all logic based calculations in life, because they do exist, are measurable, and are somewhat predictable. Emotions should not be included in reasoning ONLY as an annoying side effect, or as a petty distraction that must be resentfully catered to, that is illogical in the extreme.

They must be recognized in the same way that more substantial elements are, as being present in some situations, and not in others. Just as ignoring the presence of a high concentration of oxygen in a volatile experiment can result in sudden explosions, ignoring the presence and effect of strong emotions in social situations, can result in disruptive violence.

My advice is, not to follow any concept that is based on ignoring how emotion works. Don't artificially segregate it. As with any logical element, learn to understand it in it's place, and for it's function.

One way of considering it that I like, is to look at different mathematical systems. I'm not a mathematician, so I don't know the right way to say this in "mathemateez," but there are forms of math which are designed specifically to deal with curved, as opposed to flat environments. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line in a flat world, but is an arc in a curved universe. A straight line is therefore "illogical" in the curved universe. In the same way, emotions ARE logical, VERY logical, when they are seen as a part of the particular universe they apply to, and are only ILLOGICAL when you are in a universe where they don't exist.
User avatar
igorfrankensteen
 
Name: michael e munson
Posts: 2114
Age: 64
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#15  Postby crank » Nov 27, 2016 6:29 pm

I think it's been shown that without emotions, like a perfect Vulcan, you basically get an inert thing. How is it you decide to do anything? What motivates the choice? Don't say reason, that can inform your choice, it won't make it for you. You have to have some kind of emotion before you can make a decision, to decide which one you want more, like more, etc, these are emotional decisions at the deepest levels. Many of the deepest areas of your personality are utterly beyond your control, no matter how much logic and reasoning you manage to throw at them.

Studies of patients with brain damage that left them without any kind of emotional state would basically do nothing, there was nothing to motivate them to do anything. I think a description of this can be found in videos of Daniel Kahneman, like this, it's worth watching anything with Kahneman, so it's not a loss if this is the wrong one.

“When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.”
-George Carlin, who died 2008. Ha, now we have human centipedes running the place
User avatar
crank
RS Donator
 
Name: Sick & Tired
Posts: 10358
Age: 2
Male

Country: 2nd miasma on the left
Pitcairn (pn)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#16  Postby Fallible » Nov 27, 2016 6:53 pm

Yes, if one wants to go with Aaron Beck and Albert Ellis on this, it goes activating event -> cognition -> emotion -> behaviour. The activating event elicits a chain reaction; the individual has a thought about the event, the though elicits a certain emotion and it is the emotion which drives the individual to act. If the thought is rational, no problemo. Problems can arise when the thought is the iceberg tip of a core belief, and is based not so much on factual evidence or reason and more on skewed ideas about the world, the self and the future picked up through biased evidence-gathering over time; evidence which corresponds with the core belief is absorbed, while evidence which does not is either passed over or distorted in order to fit. So yes, emotions have their place in driving us to action, and are helpful, providing the process isn't kicked off by a thought based on incorrect beliefs heavy on emotion and light on evidence.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 43936
Age: 44
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#17  Postby Pebble » Nov 27, 2016 7:46 pm

WeirdPattern2.0 wrote:Hello. This is my first post, I hope I'm post this in the right place.

A friend linked me the following video on facebook and I'm looking for a place to seriously discuss the issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXDw73rToPE&t=0s

Even though the video is very hyped and presents little evidence, it still got me thinking.I consider myself a strong rational thinker (& atheist), but then what about my emotions?
I can't deny having emotional parts in my brain (amygdala, limbic system, ...), yet they can go against my reason. This poses a contradiction as I can't both be completely reasonable without amputation my emotional brain regions.

Would like to hear some thoughts on this.


As I understand the argument being made, the objective is to harness ones' emotions to pursue 'logic' as a pleasurable activity, not to eschew emotions.
What I don't get is if these people had really achieved a method of doing this - why would they fail to see the faulty logic in their video. Claims like one is 100 times more intelligent - if delivered logically would be supported by evidence. Issues such as failures and side effects of the 'treatment' would be explored and analysed using data. Everything presented would be supported by evidence from independent sources. One would certainly not start with claims that this new approach will 'I believe' spread like a virus.

Looks like either a send up or putting 'faith' in the process ahead of evidence.
Pebble
 
Posts: 2627

Country: UK
Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#18  Postby SafeAsMilk » Nov 27, 2016 8:08 pm

jamest wrote:
Weaver wrote:Nobody can be perfectly objective within their own head.

This is precisely why the scientific process was developed - to isolate out subjective mistakes and misinterpretations, and to settle instead on objective reality.

I'm hoping beyond hope you realise that your first statement contradicts & undermines your second?

Thanks for showing everyone once again that you have no idea what science is or what it does.
Yes, a mighty hot dog is our Lord!
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 10479
Age: 37
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#19  Postby Macdoc » Nov 27, 2016 8:38 pm

per usual....we did see some hope in Jamest star gazing ambitions - but like the stars...only a faint glimmer. :coffee:
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 11422
Age: 70
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
 
Birthday
Print view this post

Re: Reasoning and/or emotions

#20  Postby crank » Nov 28, 2016 3:46 am

Fallible wrote:Yes, if one wants to go with Aaron Beck and Albert Ellis on this, it goes activating event -> cognition -> emotion -> behaviour. The activating event elicits a chain reaction; the individual has a thought about the event, the though elicits a certain emotion and it is the emotion which drives the individual to act. If the thought is rational, no problemo. Problems can arise when the thought is the iceberg tip of a core belief, and is based not so much on factual evidence or reason and more on skewed ideas about the world, the self and the future picked up through biased evidence-gathering over time; evidence which corresponds with the core belief is absorbed, while evidence which does not is either passed over or distorted in order to fit. So yes, emotions have their place in driving us to action, and are helpful, providing the process isn't kicked off by a thought based on incorrect beliefs heavy on emotion and light on evidence.

I've heard a few who insist cognition gives rise to emotions, that they are prior, but that is daft. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what they mean by 'cognition'? Emotions are primitive, much older evolution-wise, than conscious thought, How much cognition goes into screaming after you hit yourself with a hammer?

Does their cognition include recognizing/perceiving the triggering event? That would make sense looked at from that perspective, but I wouldn't call that a rational thought process, or even an irrational one. If I see some highly sexually attractive person, or something extremely disgusting, whatever, there just isn't any thought process going on, the mere perception triggers the feelings, the thought lags significantly. You say 'if you want to go with ...', what is it you think? What drives us to action? If not some kind of emotion, what then? You mentioned a thought kicks off an emotion that drives us to do something, can just the thought drive us to act without an emotion? It's irrelevant if the emotion is based on false beliefs or true ones, it's still an emotion driving the action.
“When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.”
-George Carlin, who died 2008. Ha, now we have human centipedes running the place
User avatar
crank
RS Donator
 
Name: Sick & Tired
Posts: 10358
Age: 2
Male

Country: 2nd miasma on the left
Pitcairn (pn)
Print view this post

Next

Return to Psychology & Neuroscience

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest

cron