Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

Sexual orientation change efforts.

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#61  Postby Matthew Shute » May 13, 2017 6:36 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Moderate or greater efficacy.


Meaning what, exactly? They said they felt moderately "less gay"? For how long?

Which obvious bias are you speaking of?


Matthew Shute wrote:This is already a select and somewhat biased group of people, remember: people on some sort of questionable quest to become ex-gays, or to convince themselves or others that they've become ex-gays.


The fact they were experiencing UHA? That's the qualifying criterion for the whole endeavour.


Yeah, the whole wonderful endeavour of feeling bad about yourself because of homophobic nonsense, and then seeking to conform to the standards dictated by said nonsense. Yeah, I'm a wee bit skeptical of "the whole endeavour". Therapy to help them accept and come to terms with their own sexuality might be a better idea, at least in a country where they're not being actively persecuted. Call me crazy.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#62  Postby Keep It Real » May 13, 2017 7:23 pm

This whole thread was started because of the criminalisation of homosexual activity in 72 countries. If somebody I knew was stuck with 20kg of heroin I'd try to help them dispose of it. I've got paranoid schizophrenia, but I don't feel bad about it, because I have effective treatment. If effective treatment exists for UHA it should be refined and encouraged....or they'll get fucking executed!!!
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#63  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 13, 2017 7:33 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
You need to actually demonstrate that KIR. You can't just blindly accuse your interlocutors of faulty reading.
Not unless you want to demonstrate your position to have been achieved in the absence of reason and skepticism.


There's nothing blind about it.

There is.
You fail to cite the actual study on which those figures are based.
You fail to present the criteria used to conduct said study.
In short you fail to present any evidence to support the figures you and that study quote.
More-over you present no evidence whatsoever that your interlocutors have not read or understood the study.
You've merely appealed to your personal incredulity over and over.

Keep It Real wrote:As to your third sentence I'll have to accuse you of faulty writing, because it makes no sense.

I'll add in the words I skipped.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#64  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 13, 2017 7:36 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Moderate or greater efficacy.

That does not actually mean anything without a rigourous criteria of what is or isn't efficient KIR.

Keep It Real wrote: Which obvious bias are you speaking of?

The fact that these people want change their sexual orientation and are thus predisposed to look for a positive effect to the treatment.

Keep It Real wrote: The fact they were experiencing UHA? That's the qualifying criterion for the whole endeavour.

Making it a biased study.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#65  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 13, 2017 7:41 pm

Keep It Real wrote:This whole thread was started because of the criminalisation of homosexual activity in 72 countries.

And you advocating that, rather than fighting the irrational criminalisation, one should be encouraged to change their harmless sexual orientation through debunked and refuted quackery.

Keep It Real wrote: If somebody I knew was stuck with 20kg of heroin I'd try to help them dispose of it.

Unless you want to equate homosexuality with drugdealing and thereby threading the FUA, that analogy is bollocks.

Keep It Real wrote: I've got paranoid schizophrenia, but I don't feel bad about it, because I have effective treatment.

Again, unless you want to argue and demonstrate that homosexuality is inherently detrimental to either the individual or their environment, that analogy also makes no sense.

Keep It Real wrote: If effective treatment exists for UHA it should be refined and encouraged

You'd need to first demonstrate that UHA is actually based on realistic thoughts, rather than indoctrination and/or harmful peer pressure.


Keep It Real wrote:....or they'll get fucking executed!!!

Yep, women should just wear headscarfs, have their genitals sewn shut etc, or they'll get fucking killed!!!
People should just convert to Islam and circumcise their children, or they'll get fucking killed!!!!
Women and doctors should just stop having abortions, or they'll get fucking killed!!!
Etc, etc, etc. :crazy:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#66  Postby Matthew Shute » May 13, 2017 7:43 pm

Keep It Real wrote:This whole thread was started because of the criminalisation of homosexual activity in 72 countries. If somebody I knew was stuck with 20kg of heroin I'd try to help them dispose of it. I've got paranoid schizophrenia, but I don't feel bad about it, because I have effective treatment. If effective treatment exists for UHA it should be refined and encouraged....or they'll get fucking executed!!!


As Thommo points out, in that situation often the only realistic option for someone is to keep their sexuality hidden from prying eyes, and not draw attention to it by seeking pseudoscientific conversion therapies. Because in that latter case, they put themselves on the radar of the people who want (and have the legal power) to kill gays. And when the "treatment" fails, they will, as you point out, get fucking executed.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#67  Postby Keep It Real » May 14, 2017 9:29 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote: Which obvious bias are you speaking of?

The fact that these people want change their sexual orientation and are thus predisposed to look for a positive effect to the treatment.

Keep It Real wrote: The fact they were experiencing UHA? That's the qualifying criterion for the whole endeavour.

Making it a biased study.


That's like saying studies into the efficacy of cancer treatments are biased because the patients want to get well. :crazy:
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#68  Postby Keep It Real » May 14, 2017 9:32 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
You need to actually demonstrate that KIR. You can't just blindly accuse your interlocutors of faulty reading.
Not unless you want to demonstrate your position to have been achieved in the absence of reason and skepticism.


There's nothing blind about it.

There is.
You fail to cite the actual study on which those figures are based.
You fail to present the criteria used to conduct said study.
In short you fail to present any evidence to support the figures you and that study quote.
More-over you present no evidence whatsoever that your interlocutors have not read or understood the study.
You've merely appealed to your personal incredulity over and over.


The citations are at the end of the study. Again, it would seem you haven't read it, or you wouldn't be whining about the lack of a citation. The criteria are detailed in the study. READ IT FOR FUCK'S SAKE!
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#69  Postby Keep It Real » May 14, 2017 9:35 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:This whole thread was started because of the criminalisation of homosexual activity in 72 countries.

And you advocating that, rather than fighting the irrational criminalisation, one should be encouraged to change their harmless sexual orientation through debunked and refuted quackery.

Keep It Real wrote: If somebody I knew was stuck with 20kg of heroin I'd try to help them dispose of it.

Unless you want to equate homosexuality with drugdealing and thereby threading the FUA, that analogy is bollocks.

Keep It Real wrote: I've got paranoid schizophrenia, but I don't feel bad about it, because I have effective treatment.

Again, unless you want to argue and demonstrate that homosexuality is inherently detrimental to either the individual or their environment, that analogy also makes no sense.

Keep It Real wrote: If effective treatment exists for UHA it should be refined and encouraged

You'd need to first demonstrate that UHA is actually based on realistic thoughts, rather than indoctrination and/or harmful peer pressure.


Keep It Real wrote:....or they'll get fucking executed!!!

Yep, women should just wear headscarfs, have their genitals sewn shut etc, or they'll get fucking killed!!!
People should just convert to Islam and circumcise their children, or they'll get fucking killed!!!!
Women and doctors should just stop having abortions, or they'll get fucking killed!!!
Etc, etc, etc. :crazy:


It's not been debunked or shown to be quackery - only in your mind. Doing something unpleasant to avoid execution is hardly revolutionary logic.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#70  Postby Keep It Real » May 14, 2017 9:36 am

Matthew Shute wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:This whole thread was started because of the criminalisation of homosexual activity in 72 countries. If somebody I knew was stuck with 20kg of heroin I'd try to help them dispose of it. I've got paranoid schizophrenia, but I don't feel bad about it, because I have effective treatment. If effective treatment exists for UHA it should be refined and encouraged....or they'll get fucking executed!!!


As Thommo points out, in that situation often the only realistic option for someone is to keep their sexuality hidden from prying eyes, and not draw attention to it by seeking pseudoscientific conversion therapies. Because in that latter case, they put themselves on the radar of the people who want (and have the legal power) to kill gays. And when the "treatment" fails, they will, as you point out, get fucking executed.


Not if they abstain from homosexual acts, which I would presume you'd recommend in countries where they carry the death penalty.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#71  Postby aban57 » May 14, 2017 9:40 am

Keep It Real wrote:
It's not been debunked or shown to be quackery - only in your mind. Doing something unpleasant to avoid execution is hardly revolutionary logic.


There is no logic in your statement. Doing something unpeasant doesn't mean they're no longer homosexual. Hence it changes nothing in the outcome, and they're still at risk in these countries.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#72  Postby aban57 » May 14, 2017 9:41 am

Keep It Real wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:This whole thread was started because of the criminalisation of homosexual activity in 72 countries. If somebody I knew was stuck with 20kg of heroin I'd try to help them dispose of it. I've got paranoid schizophrenia, but I don't feel bad about it, because I have effective treatment. If effective treatment exists for UHA it should be refined and encouraged....or they'll get fucking executed!!!


As Thommo points out, in that situation often the only realistic option for someone is to keep their sexuality hidden from prying eyes, and not draw attention to it by seeking pseudoscientific conversion therapies. Because in that latter case, they put themselves on the radar of the people who want (and have the legal power) to kill gays. And when the "treatment" fails, they will, as you point out, get fucking executed.


Not if they abstain from homosexual acts, which I would presume you'd recommend in countries where they carry the death penalty.


And again, abstaining from homosexual acts is not the same thing as not being homosexual anymore. Anyone can abstain for anything, if this anything is dangerous to them.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#73  Postby Keep It Real » May 14, 2017 9:49 am

aban57 wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
It's not been debunked or shown to be quackery - only in your mind. Doing something unpleasant to avoid execution is hardly revolutionary logic.


There is no logic in your statement. Doing something unpeasant doesn't mean they're no longer homosexual. Hence it changes nothing in the outcome, and they're still at risk in these countries.


If they abstain, they're not at risk, and if they get effective SOCE they won't even feel the desire to commit the crimes.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#74  Postby Keep It Real » May 14, 2017 9:50 am

aban57 wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:This whole thread was started because of the criminalisation of homosexual activity in 72 countries. If somebody I knew was stuck with 20kg of heroin I'd try to help them dispose of it. I've got paranoid schizophrenia, but I don't feel bad about it, because I have effective treatment. If effective treatment exists for UHA it should be refined and encouraged....or they'll get fucking executed!!!


As Thommo points out, in that situation often the only realistic option for someone is to keep their sexuality hidden from prying eyes, and not draw attention to it by seeking pseudoscientific conversion therapies. Because in that latter case, they put themselves on the radar of the people who want (and have the legal power) to kill gays. And when the "treatment" fails, they will, as you point out, get fucking executed.


Not if they abstain from homosexual acts, which I would presume you'd recommend in countries where they carry the death penalty.


And again, abstaining from homosexual acts is not the same thing as not being homosexual anymore. Anyone can abstain for anything, if this anything is dangerous to them.


You don't say. :roll:
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#75  Postby aban57 » May 14, 2017 9:53 am

Keep It Real wrote:
aban57 wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
It's not been debunked or shown to be quackery - only in your mind. Doing something unpleasant to avoid execution is hardly revolutionary logic.


There is no logic in your statement. Doing something unpeasant doesn't mean they're no longer homosexual. Hence it changes nothing in the outcome, and they're still at risk in these countries.


If they abstain, they're not at risk, and if they get effective SOCE they won't even feel the desire to commit the crimes.


Crimes ? And you say your view is not biased ? And again, nothing in the paper you provided shows that there is such thing as "effective SOCE". The authors dismissed themselves the "effective" part. Nothing shows that their desire is gone.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#76  Postby Keep It Real » May 14, 2017 10:02 am

Yes, homosexual acts are crimes in some countries. I'm not homophobic, and your suggestion that I am is quite offensive and utterly unwarranted. This study shows that psychotherapeutic SOCE are effective sometimes, around 42% effective as a matter of fact. Who knows how much more effective they could become if the area were researched free from cries of "HOMOPHOBIA!".
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#77  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 14, 2017 10:23 am

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote: Which obvious bias are you speaking of?

The fact that these people want change their sexual orientation and are thus predisposed to look for a positive effect to the treatment.

Keep It Real wrote: The fact they were experiencing UHA? That's the qualifying criterion for the whole endeavour.

Making it a biased study.


That's like saying studies into the efficacy of cancer treatments are biased because the patients want to get well. :crazy:

Except that it isn't, as cancer isn't a harmless condition, meaning there are both people who are perfectly fine with their cancer and those who are not.
Really KIR, stopping pushing out these asinine analogies, it's not helping your case. In fact it makes you seem like a homophobe by constantly comparing homosexuality with all manner of mental and physical diseases.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#78  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 14, 2017 10:29 am

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
You need to actually demonstrate that KIR. You can't just blindly accuse your interlocutors of faulty reading.
Not unless you want to demonstrate your position to have been achieved in the absence of reason and skepticism.


There's nothing blind about it.

There is.
You fail to cite the actual study on which those figures are based.
You fail to present the criteria used to conduct said study.
In short you fail to present any evidence to support the figures you and that study quote.
More-over you present no evidence whatsoever that your interlocutors have not read or understood the study.
You've merely appealed to your personal incredulity over and over.


The citations are at the end of the study.

I know. When you quote stuff that's based on citations it's reasonable and practical to provide those citations.

Keep It Real wrote: Again, it would seem you haven't read it,

Stop mindlessly regurgitating this already refuted assertion KIR.

Keep It Real wrote: or you wouldn't be whining about the lack of a citation.

Pointing out your failure to provide proper context to quotes is not whining KIR, nor does it come anywhere close to demonstrating that I haven't read the study.

Keep It Real wrote: The criteria are detailed in the study. READ IT FOR FUCK'S SAKE!

Again, I have.
Again, when you make quotes, it's up to you, not your interlocutors to provide the proper context for said quotes.
Also, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, it's up to you to back it up, not for those who question you to to do your work for you.
Finally, several people, including myself, have already pointed out the flaws in that particular claim:
1. Being self-reportive and biased.
2. Abstaining from gay sex not being the same as changing one's sexuality.
3. The failure to test on those who do not view their sexuality as a problem, adding to the bias and unreliable results of this study.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#79  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 14, 2017 10:30 am

I also note that you failed to adress valid criticsms of your false analogies, as well as demonstrations of the harmful results your enabling position leads to.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#80  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 14, 2017 10:32 am

Keep It Real wrote:
It's not been debunked or shown to be quackery - only in your mind.

Counterfactual blind assertion.
Not a single therapy or other method has been demonstrated to actually change a persons sexual orientation.
That's all that's needed to debunk them.

Keep It Real wrote: Doing something unpleasant to avoid execution is hardly revolutionary logic.

Kowtowing to human rights violations is not something I support, no matter how non-revolutionary it is.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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