Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

Sexual orientation change efforts.

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#81  Postby Keep It Real » May 14, 2017 10:33 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote: Which obvious bias are you speaking of?

The fact that these people want change their sexual orientation and are thus predisposed to look for a positive effect to the treatment.

Keep It Real wrote: The fact they were experiencing UHA? That's the qualifying criterion for the whole endeavour.

Making it a biased study.


That's like saying studies into the efficacy of cancer treatments are biased because the patients want to get well. :crazy:

Except that it isn't, as cancer isn't a harmless condition, meaning there are both people who are perfectly fine with their cancer and those who are not.
Really KIR, stopping pushing out these asinine analogies, it's not helping your case. In fact it makes you seem like a homophobe by constantly comparing homosexuality with all manner of mental and physical diseases.


Pathetic. The vast majority of cancer patients want to get well and I can't help it if your blinkered, indoctrinated, reactionary mind judges me a homophobe - that's your problem/mistake..
"What's it like to be rich? You can't have two lunches." - some famous musician.
"Who want's activism?" PMSL 'till I dehydrate and die in the desert - somebody.
https://soundcloud.com/sciteks
Keep It Real
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 4421
Age: 36
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#82  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 14, 2017 10:34 am

Keep It Real wrote:
aban57 wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
It's not been debunked or shown to be quackery - only in your mind. Doing something unpleasant to avoid execution is hardly revolutionary logic.


There is no logic in your statement. Doing something unpeasant doesn't mean they're no longer homosexual. Hence it changes nothing in the outcome, and they're still at risk in these countries.


If they abstain, they're not at risk, and if they get effective SOCE they won't even feel the desire to commit the crimes.

Except that there's no evidence to support the notion of effective sexuality changing therapy, so you might as well hope for a leprechaun to take away their same-sex attraction.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27342
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#83  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 14, 2017 10:39 am

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:

The fact that these people want change their sexual orientation and are thus predisposed to look for a positive effect to the treatment.


Making it a biased study.


That's like saying studies into the efficacy of cancer treatments are biased because the patients want to get well. :crazy:

Except that it isn't, as cancer isn't a harmless condition, meaning there are both people who are perfectly fine with their cancer and those who are not.
Really KIR, stopping pushing out these asinine analogies, it's not helping your case. In fact it makes you seem like a homophobe by constantly comparing homosexuality with all manner of mental and physical diseases.


Pathetic.

What's pathetic is your repeated failure to both read what your interlocutors actually post and adress that, rather than tilting at straw-men.

Keep It Real wrote: The vast majority of cancer patients want to get well

Image
The point is that cancer is actually demonstrably harmful, where same-sex attraction isn't.
The point is that the studies you keep referring to consists largely, if not exclusively, of gay men who consider their homsexuality a problem. While there are plenty of gay men who don't.
Meaning that the study sample is not representative in the slightest and the results highly biased.

Keep It Real wrote: and I can't help it if your blinkered, indoctrinated, reactionary mind

Silly blind accusations like this won't fly on this site KIR, they only damage your own reputation.

Keep It Real wrote: judges me a homophobe - that's your problem/mistake..

Fortunately I'm not bothered by fantastical scenarios.
I did not judge you to be a homophobe.
I said your arguments make it look like you're one. By virtue of being indistinguishable from the arguments homophobes make.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27342
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#84  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 14, 2017 10:40 am

Keep It Real wrote:
aban57 wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:

As Thommo points out, in that situation often the only realistic option for someone is to keep their sexuality hidden from prying eyes, and not draw attention to it by seeking pseudoscientific conversion therapies. Because in that latter case, they put themselves on the radar of the people who want (and have the legal power) to kill gays. And when the "treatment" fails, they will, as you point out, get fucking executed.


Not if they abstain from homosexual acts, which I would presume you'd recommend in countries where they carry the death penalty.


And again, abstaining from homosexual acts is not the same thing as not being homosexual anymore. Anyone can abstain for anything, if this anything is dangerous to them.


You don't say. :roll:

It's a point you repeatedly fail to acknowledge as making the study you keep referring to non-scientific quackery.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27342
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#85  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 14, 2017 10:44 am

Keep It Real wrote:Yes, homosexual acts are crimes in some countries. I'm not homophobic, and your suggestion that I am is quite offensive and utterly unwarranted.

It's also bullshit as aban hasn't even hinted at, much less accused you of being a homophobe.
Stop making shit up KIR.


Keep It Real wrote:
This study shows that psychotherapeutic SOCE are effective sometimes, around 42% effective as a matter of fact. Who knows how much more effective they could become if the area were researched free from cries of "HOMOPHOBIA!".

:picard:
You might as well cite studies done by the Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda on the evil nature of Jews.
That study comes nowhere near to proving that sexuality can be changed through therapy KIR.
It merely asserts it can based on biased test samples &conflating abstention and denial with change, and outright nonsense.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27342
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#86  Postby aban57 » May 14, 2017 10:47 am

Keep It Real wrote:Yes, homosexual acts are crimes in some countries. I'm not homophobic, and your suggestion that I am is quite offensive and utterly unwarranted. This study shows that psychotherapeutic SOCE are effective sometimes, around 42% effective as a matter of fact. Who knows how much more effective they could become if the area were researched free from cries of "HOMOPHOBIA!".


Homophobia is precisely the reason why homosexuality is considered a crime in some countries. I'm not saying you're homophobic, I'm saying you should be anti-homophobic, which your discourse here has proven you're not. Your constant wish to prove SOCE isn't bullshit, in a so-called attempt to "protect" people killed for what they are, sounds a lot like victim blaiming.

And by the way, this 42% figure has already been debunked in that thread, but again, you don't seem to be ready to accept that your belief is incorrect, even though it has severely been debunked by several people.
User avatar
aban57
 
Name: Cédric
Posts: 4270
Age: 38

Country: France
Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#87  Postby aban57 » May 14, 2017 10:54 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Yes, homosexual acts are crimes in some countries. I'm not homophobic, and your suggestion that I am is quite offensive and utterly unwarranted.

It's also bullshit as aban hasn't even hinted at, much less accused you of being a homophobe.
Stop making shit up KIR.


Keep It Real wrote:
This study shows that psychotherapeutic SOCE are effective sometimes, around 42% effective as a matter of fact. Who knows how much more effective they could become if the area were researched free from cries of "HOMOPHOBIA!".

:picard:
You might as well cite studies done by the Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda on the evil nature of Jews.
That study comes nowhere near to proving that sexuality can be changed through therapy KIR.
It merely asserts it can based on biased test samples &conflating abstention and denial with change, and outright nonsense.


Indeed. Asking gays who went through electrochocs "conversion" would also say that their orientation has changed, when in fact their desires have been psychologically associated with pain, which makes them deny what they really feel. Your study doesn't prove on any way that those 42% had their orientation changed, just that they feel guilty about it. Which they already did before joining the study.
User avatar
aban57
 
Name: Cédric
Posts: 4270
Age: 38

Country: France
Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#88  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 14, 2017 12:21 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote: Which obvious bias are you speaking of?

The fact that these people want change their sexual orientation and are thus predisposed to look for a positive effect to the treatment.

Keep It Real wrote: The fact they were experiencing UHA? That's the qualifying criterion for the whole endeavour.

Making it a biased study.


That's like saying studies into the efficacy of cancer treatments are biased because the patients want to get well. :crazy:

Not really, because in the case of cancer you can actually show your patients have gotten well, real physical measures. All you've got in your UHA case is self reporting, which is worth pretty much nothing when the people reporting really want you to believe they're not gay anymore.
Yes, a mighty hot dog is our Lord!
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 10830
Age: 37
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#89  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 14, 2017 12:45 pm

Keep It Real wrote:The whole article critically evaluates the 4 studies conducted on adult SOCE and the whole article rips the politically motivated APA's pronouncements on SOCE a new one.

This is quite an ironic claim given the UHA's transparently political motivations.

To be frank, if you can't be bothered to read it perhaps you should refrain from commenting on it?

I clearly did read it, because I was able to point out to you right at the top of the very first page of the report the statement that there's no scientific support for their views. Maybe you should grasp this basic and straightforward concept, conveniently placed, before you go reading what you want into the rest of the paper?

Here's one easily digestible snippit:

Psychotherapy was found to have moderate or greater effectiveness by 44% of respondents who sought it, with respective effectiveness ratings of 48% for psychiatry, 39% for group therapy, and 48% for group retreats. 

And they determined this how? Self reporting? If you can only get 44% from people who are primed to find your therapy effective, then you seriously better get back to the drawing board :lol:
Yes, a mighty hot dog is our Lord!
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 10830
Age: 37
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#90  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 14, 2017 12:57 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Yes, homosexual acts are crimes in some countries. I'm not homophobic, and your suggestion that I am is quite offensive and utterly unwarranted. This study shows that psychotherapeutic SOCE are effective sometimes, around 42% effective as a matter of fact claim.

FIFY.

Who knows how much more effective they could become if the area were researched free from cries of "HOMOPHOBIA!".

You've had practically the entire history of science to research this, and yet you've still got no scientific evidence for it as stated in the very first line of the paper you provided. Maybe remove the politically motivated blinkers you're wearing and recognize this?
Yes, a mighty hot dog is our Lord!
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 10830
Age: 37
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#91  Postby Matthew Shute » May 14, 2017 5:19 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:This whole thread was started because of the criminalisation of homosexual activity in 72 countries. If somebody I knew was stuck with 20kg of heroin I'd try to help them dispose of it. I've got paranoid schizophrenia, but I don't feel bad about it, because I have effective treatment. If effective treatment exists for UHA it should be refined and encouraged....or they'll get fucking executed!!!


As Thommo points out, in that situation often the only realistic option for someone is to keep their sexuality hidden from prying eyes, and not draw attention to it by seeking pseudoscientific conversion therapies. Because in that latter case, they put themselves on the radar of the people who want (and have the legal power) to kill gays. And when the "treatment" fails, they will, as you point out, get fucking executed.


Not if they abstain from homosexual acts, which I would presume you'd recommend in countries where they carry the death penalty.


My sexual advice to a gay person in Iran or Saudi Arabia is neither here nor there. Why would/should they listen to me? I can see your rationale for abstinence, but ultimately the risks they think are worth making are for them to decide. I'm pretty sure gay sex hasn't been eliminated from any of these countries, it just has to be very secretive to escape the notice of the oppressors. Abstinence, on its own, makes more sense than drawing the beady eyes of the sharia enforcers by going down the route you suggest. What I want to keep dragging you back to, though, is this. These executions for homosexual acts are just murders by bloodstained zealots enforcing religious dogma. If there's any meaningful difference between Islamic State doing it or the Saudi authorities doing it, I haven't heard of it. Homosexual attraction is not the problem here. Gay sex is not the problem. A state that murders its citizens, for the sake of witless dogmas about an imaginary tyrant, is the problem.
"Change will preserve us. It is the lifeblood of the Isles. It will move mountains! It will mount movements!" - Sheogorath
User avatar
Matthew Shute
 
Name: Matthew Shute
Posts: 3557
Age: 39

Antarctica (aq)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#92  Postby Cito di Pense » May 14, 2017 7:17 pm

Matthew Shute wrote:A state that murders its citizens, for the sake of witless dogmas about an imaginary tyrant, is the problem.


"It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail." I think Gore Vidal is often credited with that one. Of course, the less success you have, the more failure you have to generate to make it appear as if you've succeeded grandly.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 24912
Age: 6
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#93  Postby laklak » May 15, 2017 1:36 am

Just declare victory and go home. Worked in The Nam.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
laklak
RS Donator
 
Name: Florida Man
Posts: 16478
Age: 63
Male

Country: The Great Satan
Swaziland (sz)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#94  Postby Keep It Real » May 15, 2017 7:02 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote: The criteria are detailed in the study.

Finally, several people, including myself, have already pointed out the flaws in that particular claim:
1. Being self-reportive and biased.
2. Abstaining from gay sex not being the same as changing one's sexuality.
3. The failure to test on those who do not view their sexuality as a problem, adding to the bias and unreliable results of this study.


The study was biased against SOCE by design - the authors state that they are affiliated with LGB acceptance groups, so this is hardly surprising. Nevertheless they found a 42% success rate for psychotherapeutic SOCE. The real success rate could be much higher. Abstaining from gay sex was not a reported measure, so your second claim is clearly pulled out of your arse. Self-reporting is the only practical way to ascertain sexual orientation, and any other bias skews the study away from endorsing SOCE; not the other way around. Why would somebody who doesn't view their sexuality as a problem engage in SOCE? Your third point is therefore baseless gibberish too. In short, you are wrong.

As for me missing the point, it's not my fault if your incapable of making a coherent point - your revised explanation for dismissing the cancer treatment analogy bears very little resemblance to what you originally wrote, so you're mockery is entirely misplaced and indicative of you being disingenuous.
"What's it like to be rich? You can't have two lunches." - some famous musician.
"Who want's activism?" PMSL 'till I dehydrate and die in the desert - somebody.
https://soundcloud.com/sciteks
Keep It Real
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 4421
Age: 36
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#95  Postby Cito di Pense » May 15, 2017 9:37 am

Keep It Real wrote:Nevertheless they found a 42% success rate for psychotherapeutic SOCE. The real success rate could be much higher.


SafeAsMilk wrote:aside from the fact that lying about it obviously benefits them?


Keep It Real wrote:So we conclude that sexual orientation is fluid for many people; they're straight one minute; gay the next; bi the next etc.


Keep It Real wrote:
The study was biased against SOCE by design


Their bias doesn't matter if their methodology is crap. We don't conclude that research quality is elevated BECAUSE of the bias of the researcher, even if we take it at face value.

So much for survey research on SOCE. Maybe now you understand the term 'confounding factor'.

:rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance: :rofl: :clap: :dance:

Keep It Real wrote:Take the science on it's own merits; don't just dismiss it because the authors are affiliated with a disreputable organisation.


What merits were those?
Last edited by Cito di Pense on May 15, 2017 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 24912
Age: 6
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#96  Postby zulumoose » May 15, 2017 10:08 am

One thing that sticks out for me in this thread, that doesn't seem to have been taken on board:-

1) Cancer is a bad analogy because cancer treatment outcomes are not measured by the cancer patients self-reported stories of how successful they feel the treatment has been. There are real, measurable outcomes, and unavoidable consequences for unsuccessful treatment, you cannot have a failed cancer treatment and not have it catch up with you down the line, unless you are hit by a bus or have a coincidental spontaneous remission.

The real cancer analogy would be the faith healer cancer treatment. There have been numerous stories of patients with terminal illnesses who have gone to faith healers or other quacks, and whose testimony of having had successful treatment has been put forward by these "healers" as evidence, only for the patient to then die soon afterwards. Combination of wishful thinking, self-delusion and placebo effect at work. I can't be bothered to look for examples of these kinds of stories, but I am sure everyone is familiar with them. Sometimes the patient who has been "cured" by the praying or quackery has had ongoing medical treatment which is sufficient to fully explain any improvement they have attributed to the alternative treatments.
User avatar
zulumoose
 
Posts: 2302

Country: South Africa
South Africa (za)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#97  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 15, 2017 11:58 am

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote: The criteria are detailed in the study.

Finally, several people, including myself, have already pointed out the flaws in that particular claim:
1. Being self-reportive and biased.
2. Abstaining from gay sex not being the same as changing one's sexuality.
3. The failure to test on those who do not view their sexuality as a problem, adding to the bias and unreliable results of this study.


The study was biased against SOCE by design - the authors state that they are affiliated with LGB acceptance groups,

That would be a lie.

Keep It Real wrote:so this is hardly surprising.

What's surprising and disappointing, is that you once again ignore the points being made in favour of your own fantastical narrative.
The people tested in these studies want to get rid of their homosexuality, ergo the sample is incredibly biased.


Keep It Real wrote: Nevertheless they found a 42% success rate for psychotherapeutic SOCE.

They did not KIR.
Given that you've been corrected on that several times already, I fail to see why you keep mindlessly regurgitating that nonsense.


Keep It Real wrote: The real success rate could be much higher.

No success has ever been demonstrated.

Keep It Real wrote: Abstaining from gay sex was not a reported measure, so your second claim is clearly pulled out of your arse.

False. You kept referring to it.

Keep It Real wrote: Self-reporting is the only practical way to ascertain sexual orientation, and any other bias skews the study away from endorsing SOCE;

You do realise how science works right? Studies are based on factual findings, not desired results.

Keep It Real wrote:
not the other way around. Why would somebody who doesn't view their sexuality as a problem engage in SOCE?

You're still missing the point that this demonstrates the study to be inherently biased.
If you're going to test whether a therapy works, and only test it on people who want to change, you're likely get a high succes rate. Just by virtue of people hoping to change trying to view everything through that lens.

Keep It Real wrote: Your third point is therefore baseless gibberish too. In short, you are wrong.

All you've demonstrated is that you've either not read the actual arguments I made and/or failed to understand them.


Keep It Real wrote: As for me missing the point, it's not my fault if your incapable of making a coherent point

You have not demonstrated this to be the case. The fact that people like my posts demonstrate that they are perfectly coherent, if not correct.

Keep It Real wrote:
- your revised explanation

There's nothing revised about it, stop making shit up KIR, it only demonstrates dishonesty on your part.


Keep It Real wrote:for dismissing the cancer treatment analogy bears very little resemblance to what you originally wrote,

Blind counterfactual assertion.
You need to actually demonstrate that, not just blindly assert.

Keep It Real wrote:so you're mockery is entirely misplaced and indicative of you being disingenuous.

Hello pot, have you met kettle?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27342
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#98  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 15, 2017 12:00 pm

zulumoose wrote:One thing that sticks out for me in this thread, that doesn't seem to have been taken on board:-

Virtually nothing has been taken on board by the OP.

zulumoose wrote:1) Cancer is a bad analogy because cancer treatment outcomes are not measured by the cancer patients self-reported stories of how successful they feel the treatment has been. There are real, measurable outcomes, and unavoidable consequences for unsuccessful treatment, you cannot have a failed cancer treatment and not have it catch up with you down the line, unless you are hit by a bus or have a coincidental spontaneous remission.

:nod: pointed out mulitple times, repeatedly ignored.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27342
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#99  Postby zulumoose » May 15, 2017 12:40 pm

:nod: pointed out mulitple times, repeatedly ignored.


I think it is my later point that has been missed. Terminal patients going for last-resort quackery frequently believe the treatment has been successful, not because it has been, but because they need to believe it has been. Self-reporting is absolutely worthless as an assessment of actual results.

In fact self-reporting only has value when used to assess what it actually is, which is a change in self reporting. You can ask people what they believe the effectiveness is of a life-coach/motivational speaker, then ask them again just after a course, and a month after that. Chances are they will be sceptical at first, much more positive just after, and a month later probably as sceptical as before if not more so, because they realise the effects were more self-delusion than anything else, and they settled back into old habits almost immediately.

Such a speaker will have no difficulty in obtaining positive results from attendees, he just has to time his requests for comment correctly. Give them enough time to realise the con, and the results might just be negative. Sometimes even the positive results are not real, since some people will immediately settle into old habits, but blame themselves for what they believe to be their failure, and continue to report that the course was good and worthwhile, even though if they were honest with themselves they would realise that everyone else did the same and there were no positive results.
User avatar
zulumoose
 
Posts: 2302

Country: South Africa
South Africa (za)
Print view this post

Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#100  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 15, 2017 12:55 pm

zulumoose wrote:
:nod: pointed out mulitple times, repeatedly ignored.


I think it is my later point that has been missed. Terminal patients going for last-resort quackery frequently believe the treatment has been successful, not because it has been, but because they need to believe it has been. Self-reporting is absolutely worthless as an assessment of actual results.

That's a point myself and others have been trying to make with regards to this study consisting of people who want to be cured, rather than both people pro- and con to the change.

zulumoose wrote:
In fact self-reporting only has value when used to assess what it actually is, which is a change in self reporting. You can ask people what they believe the effectiveness is of a life-coach/motivational speaker, then ask them again just after a course, and a month after that. Chances are they will be sceptical at first, much more positive just after, and a month later probably as sceptical as before if not more so, because they realise the effects were more self-delusion than anything else, and they settled back into old habits almost immediately.

Such a speaker will have no difficulty in obtaining positive results from attendees, he just has to time his requests for comment correctly. Give them enough time to realise the con, and the results might just be negative. Sometimes even the positive results are not real, since some people will immediately settle into old habits, but blame themselves for what they believe to be their failure, and continue to report that the course was good and worthwhile, even though if they were honest with themselves they would realise that everyone else did the same and there were no positive results.

:nod:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27342
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Psychology & Neuroscience

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest