Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

Sexual orientation change efforts.

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Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#1  Postby Keep It Real » May 10, 2017 11:59 am

There are no studies of adequate scientific rigor to conclude whether or not recent SOCE do or do not work to change a person’s sexual orientation.


SOCE wikipedia

I just watched a documentary on iPlayer where there were some claims by Christians that they are ex-gay. I have no reason to think them liars, although I do think their efforts to change sexual orientation are/were erroneous. There's nothing wrong with being gay but homosexuality is still a crime punishable under the law in 72 countries. Should SOCE be investigated, refined, researched and offered to persecuted homosexuals? It's easy to say that the persecution/stigmatisation of homosexuals is what should be changed, but religious/backward countries aren't about to decriminalise homosexual acts until they undergo pretty seismic changes in their culture which could take at least decades, perhaps centuries, or never happen at all. If SOCE were effective (there appears to be no consensus judging from the quote, and according to many reports it is effective sometimes) should it be encouraged/refined where homosexuality is harmful to homosexuals; as a stop gap until the bible/koran is in the bin and it isn't illegal anywhere?
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#2  Postby Clive Durdle » May 10, 2017 12:44 pm

I think there are a whole series of questions that need answering first, for example what are prosthetics and what is human, before we can start to discuss how and with whom we "interact"!

On prosthetics

https://infotechmfp.files.wordpress.com ... etics1.pdf


What is it to talk of prosthesishere in architecturaldis- course?Or, rather,what is it to talkof it again, for was not modern architecturesimply the thought of architectureas prosthesis?Displaced from artificeinto the artificial,archi- tecture became a technological extension of the body that is neither natural nor cultural. Modern architectureis the space of the artificial. As Le Corbusier argues

We all need means of supplementing our natural capabilities, since natureis indifferent,inhuman (extra-human),and incle- ment;wearebornnakedandwithinsufficientarmor.. . . The barrelof Diogenes, alreadya notable improvementon our natural protectiveorgans(our skin and scalp), gave us the primordialcell of the house; filing cabinets and copy-lettersmake good the inad- equacies of our memory;wardrobesand sideboardsare the con- tainers in which we put away the auxiliarylimbs that guarantee us againstcold or heat, hunger or thirst. . . . Our concern is
with the mechanical system that surroundsus, which is no more
than an extension of our limbs; its elements, in fact, artificial limbs.

This concern with buildings as "human-limbobjects"worn like clothing would even become as literalas Gideon's identificationof the nineteenth-centuryinterestin "the problem ..


We are evolving complex adaptive systems. There isn't any right or wrong set of brains organs limbs and rude bits.

So I must ask what are these attempts to change things about?

Are they really improving lives or are they imposed by someone else?
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#3  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 10, 2017 12:56 pm

Let me phrase it a different way: should non-Muslims be offered indoctrination in Islamic theocracies?
Should we be ok with FGM?
If your answer to either of these questions is no, why should SOCE (assuming it works, which I doubt) be deemed not just acceptable but encouraged?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#4  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 10, 2017 1:05 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
There are no studies of adequate scientific rigor to conclude whether or not recent SOCE do or do not work to change a person’s sexual orientation.


SOCE wikipedia

I just watched a documentary on iPlayer where there were some claims by Christians that they are ex-gay. I have no reason to think them liars,

You mean aside from the fact that lying about it obviously benefits them? If you have any understanding of your own sexuality, you realize they have to be lying. You can no more decide you're attracted to dudes than you can decide you're no longer attracted to women.

although I do think their efforts to change sexual orientation are/were erroneous. There's nothing wrong with being gay but homosexuality is still a crime punishable under the law in 72 countries. Should SOCE be investigated, refined, researched and offered to persecuted homosexuals? It's easy to say that the persecution/stigmatisation of homosexuals is what should be changed, but religious/backward countries aren't about to decriminalise homosexual acts until they undergo pretty seismic changes in their culture which could take at least decades, perhaps centuries, or never happen at all. If SOCE were effective (there appears to be no consensus judging from the quote, and according to many reports it is effective sometimes) should it be encouraged/refined where homosexuality is harmful to homosexuals; as a stop gap until the bible/koran is in the bin and it isn't illegal anywhere?

...giving them no reason to change their ways, because the gays will just change for them. And when you realize, with even cursory investigation into your own sexuality, that they aren't actually changing their sexuality, they're just pretending they're not gay...which is what they were doing already. No thanks. Focus on getting the religious bigots to change their ways, it may take time but that's the real, direct problem in this situation.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#5  Postby zulumoose » May 10, 2017 1:10 pm

Should efforts to dye or bleach the skin of racially persecuted people be supported because there are many places where the norm is to view them as inferior?

I just watched a documentary on iPlayer where there were some claims by Christians that they are ex-gay. I have no reason to think them liars


But every reason to believe they are deluded.

One thing that is definitely successful is treatment designed to delude, or increase levels of delusion. It is far easier for a person to be in denial and think they have been "cured" or changed, than it is for that to be a reality.

I think the scientific community is in general agreement that sexuality and gender identity are far from being black and white issues, we all fall on a bell curve in both those categories, and it is unclear whether there is any natural movement along the curve during development or whether our individual default adult positions are set from the beginning or may even change as we age beyond adulthood. The only thing that seems wise is to encourage acceptance and remove where possible stigma, instead of trying to work with it.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#6  Postby Keep It Real » May 10, 2017 3:50 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Let me phrase it a different way: should non-Muslims be offered indoctrination in Islamic theocracies?
Should we be ok with FGM?
If your answer to either of these questions is no, why should SOCE (assuming it works, which I doubt) be deemed not just acceptable but encouraged?


Not being a Muslim and not having FGM isn't punishable by the death penalty/heavy prison sentences so your analogies fail.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#7  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 10, 2017 4:03 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Let me phrase it a different way: should non-Muslims be offered indoctrination in Islamic theocracies?
Should we be ok with FGM?
If your answer to either of these questions is no, why should SOCE (assuming it works, which I doubt) be deemed not just acceptable but encouraged?


Not being a Muslim and not having FGM isn't punishable by the death penalty/heavy prison sentences so your analogies fail.

They don't. The anology aren't about you being a Muslim or FGM being punishable.
It's about instances of encouraging or even forcing people to adapt to irrational, harmful, personal beliefs.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#8  Postby Keep It Real » May 10, 2017 4:15 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Let me phrase it a different way: should non-Muslims be offered indoctrination in Islamic theocracies?
Should we be ok with FGM?
If your answer to either of these questions is no, why should SOCE (assuming it works, which I doubt) be deemed not just acceptable but encouraged?


Not being a Muslim and not having FGM isn't punishable by the death penalty/heavy prison sentences so your analogies fail.

They don't. The anology aren't about you being a Muslim or FGM being punishable.
It's about instances of encouraging or even forcing people to adapt to irrational, harmful, personal beliefs.


The illegality of street drugs is comparable, in that many view their illegality as being irrational. I would encourage a friend not to import 20kg of heroin nevertheless as it carries a heavy prison sentence if caught. Also, what's harmful about being ex-gay, if the SOCE which brought about that state was ethically implemented and harmless?
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#9  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 10, 2017 4:23 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Let me phrase it a different way: should non-Muslims be offered indoctrination in Islamic theocracies?
Should we be ok with FGM?
If your answer to either of these questions is no, why should SOCE (assuming it works, which I doubt) be deemed not just acceptable but encouraged?


Not being a Muslim and not having FGM isn't punishable by the death penalty/heavy prison sentences so your analogies fail.

They don't. The anology aren't about you being a Muslim or FGM being punishable.
It's about instances of encouraging or even forcing people to adapt to irrational, harmful, personal beliefs.


The illegality of street drugs is comparable, in that many view their illegality as being irrational.

The (il)legality is is a red herring imo.
The issue is should we encourage or even force people to adapt to the intolerant, irrational, personal tastes and beliefs of others.
There's nothing objectively wrong with homosexuality or being gay. Ergo there's no valid argument to encourage people who are to change their orientation.

Keep It Real wrote:Also, what's harmful about being ex-gay,

That's shifting the burden of proof. What needs to be establised is that there's something objectively wrong with being gay.
What's wrong with SOCE and similar fraudulent practices is that there's no evidence that people can change their sexual attraction, whilst there's plenty of evidence that denying/supressing your sexual orientation (Which is what shams like SOCE most often boild down to) is harmful to your mental health.

Keep It Real wrote: if the SOCE which brought about that state was ethically implemented and harmless?

If FGM was ethically implemented and harmless, would you be fine with it being encouraged and enforced on involuntary subjects?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#10  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » May 10, 2017 4:32 pm

If it can be done effectively and without harming patients, sure, refine it. I just think it needs to be entirely up to the patient whether they undergo it and everyone else should neither encourage or discourage it. I don't know if it's possible to create a world in which some people wouldn't be forced into such a thing.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#11  Postby Keep It Real » May 10, 2017 4:37 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:The (il)legality is is a red herring imo.
The issue is should we encourage or even force people to adapt to the intolerant, irrational, personal tastes and beliefs of others.
There's nothing objectively wrong with homosexuality or being gay. Ergo there's no valid argument to encourage people who are to change their orientation.

The illegality is not a red herring, it's one of the core issues; a fact in 72 countries.

Keep It Real wrote:Also, what's harmful about being ex-gay,

Thomas Eshuis wrote:That's shifting the burden of proof. What needs to be establised is that there's something objectively wrong with being gay.
What's wrong with SOCE and similar fraudulent practices is that there's no evidence that people can change their sexual attraction, whilst there's plenty of evidence that denying/supressing your sexual orientation (Which is what shams like SOCE most often boild down to) is harmful to your mental health.

The jury is out as to whether SOCE can be effective. There is also no scientific evidence it is ineffective, and plenty of people who claim to be ex-gay.

Keep It Real wrote: if the SOCE which brought about that state was ethically implemented and harmless?

Thomas Eshuis wrote:If FGM was ethically implemented and harmless, would you be fine with it being encouraged and enforced on involuntary subjects?

I'm having a tough time envisaging harmless FGM...perhaps you could describe what you have in mind?
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#12  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 10, 2017 5:03 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:The (il)legality is is a red herring imo.
The issue is should we encourage or even force people to adapt to the intolerant, irrational, personal tastes and beliefs of others.
There's nothing objectively wrong with homosexuality or being gay. Ergo there's no valid argument to encourage people who are to change their orientation.

The illegality is not a red herring, it's one of the core issues; a fact in 72 countries.

It's a problem. It's not the core issue. The core issue is people trying to encourage and/or enforce people to conform to their irrational, personal beliefs. Legal punishments are symptoms of this issue.

Keep It Real wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Also, what's harmful about being ex-gay,

Thomas Eshuis wrote:That's shifting the burden of proof. What needs to be establised is that there's something objectively wrong with being gay.
What's wrong with SOCE and similar fraudulent practices is that there's no evidence that people can change their sexual attraction, whilst there's plenty of evidence that denying/supressing your sexual orientation (Which is what shams like SOCE most often boild down to) is harmful to your mental health.

The jury is out as to whether SOCE can be effective.

It isn't.
Multiple studies have been done on various gay deconversion therapies and programmes, none have been demonstrated to be effective, many have been demonstrated to be counterproductive and damaging.

Keep It Real wrote: There is also no scientific evidence it is ineffective,

You're once again shifting the burden of proof. What's more you cannot demonstrate such a negative.
The fact that it hasn't been demonstrated to be effective is sufficient grounds to dismiss it.

Keep It Real wrote:and plenty of people who claim to be ex-gay.

So what? Plenty of people claim to be visited by aliens, having been in contact with their gods, or having seen ghosts.
Doesn't mean ghosts exists, aliens have abducted 100s of people or multiple gods have been in contact with 1000s of their followers.

Keep It Real wrote:
Keep It Real wrote: if the SOCE which brought about that state was ethically implemented and harmless?

Thomas Eshuis wrote:If FGM was ethically implemented and harmless, would you be fine with it being encouraged and enforced on involuntary subjects?

I'm having a tough time envisaging harmless FGM...perhaps you could describe what you have in mind?

I'm having a though time engisaging a harmless and ehtically justifiable SOCE, maybe you can describe what that would look like?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#13  Postby Keep It Real » May 10, 2017 5:44 pm

The APA says that people realise they are gay, straight, bi etc at different times in their lives. Why are you so sure it isn't possible for somebody to change sexual orientation? There is no evidence for ghosts/aliens but plenty of instances of people living in straight relationships when they were previously in gay relationships. Harmless SOCE would involve counselling people to realise they truly don't want to be intimate with people of the undesirable gender, and do want to be intimate with people of the desirable gender, although there may well be other techniques I'm not aware of.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#14  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » May 10, 2017 5:47 pm

There's loads of evidence of gay people in straight relationships during which they claim they're not gay until they come out though so...
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#15  Postby Keep It Real » May 10, 2017 6:00 pm

So we conclude that sexual orientation is fluid for many people; they're straight one minute; gay the next; bi the next etc.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#16  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 10, 2017 6:06 pm

Keep It Real wrote:The APA says that people realise they are gay, straight, bi etc at different times in their lives.

Realising your sexual orientation =/= choosing your sexual orientation.
It simply means people become aware or recognise their sexual orientation at different times in their lives.

Keep It Real wrote: Why are you so sure it isn't possible for somebody to change sexual orientation?

Because it's instinctual.
You get attracted to someone, or in this case a particular gender or genders, or you don't.
There's no choice or concious decision involved.

Keep It Real wrote:
There is no evidence for ghosts/aliens but plenty of instances of people living in straight relationships when they were previously in gay relationships.

There's zero evidence that those people are no longer gay.
On the other hand there are numerous examples of those people still being gay and later divorcing because of it.
Likwise there's people who've been pretending to be straight and 'happily' married for decades only to acknowledge later on that they'd been gay all the time and deluding themselves and their family.

Keep It Real wrote: Harmless SOCE would involve counselling people to realise they truly don't want to be intimate with people of the undesirable gender,

That refutes the acronym.
People who don't want to be sexual intimate with a certain gender, don't have a sexual orientation for said gender and as such would not need SOCE in the first place.
Unless you're talking about people who've been convinced it's bad to be sexually intmate with certain genders, in which case it would be harmful.

Keep It Real wrote: and do want to be intimate with people of the desirable gender, although there may well be other techniques I'm not aware of.

Again, desirable gender = sexual orientation. Hence no need for SOCE.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#17  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 10, 2017 6:09 pm

Keep It Real wrote:So we conclude that sexual orientation is fluid for many people; they're straight one minute; gay the next; bi the next etc.

Eh, no.
Those people invariably turn out to be bisexual with changes in preferences of one gender over the other.
And there's still a reasonable question of whether those changes aren't (in some cases) caused by changes in the availability of one gender over the other.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#18  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » May 10, 2017 6:11 pm

Keep It Real wrote:So we conclude that sexual orientation is fluid for many people; they're straight one minute; gay the next; bi the next etc.


Or we accept what they tell us: that they'd been repressing their orientation all along.

Who we actually have sex with isn't orientation. It's just the action. Lots of people don't come out as gay until they can't bare not being their authentic selves anymore.
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#19  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 10, 2017 6:13 pm

An important point is this:
Sexual orientation refers to your attraction to gender/sex (s). It does not guarantee that you'll actually encounter a specifc individual of the gender you're attracted to, that you find sexually attractive.
Heterosexuality =/= being attracted to any and all people of the opposite gender/sex.
Ergo, theoretically, one could be a heterosexual male and never encounter a women they find sexually attractive. Therefore mistakenly assuming they're asexual.
Before someone attempts to dredge up the 'how can you be sure you're gay if you haven't met the right women yet?', yes one cannot be sure they're exclusively hetero- or homosexual, but one can be sure that they are attracted to the opposite or same sex.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Should SOCE be refined/encouraged sometimes?

#20  Postby laklak » May 10, 2017 6:18 pm

Meh, it's not gay if you do it for a mate.
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