Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#41  Postby The_Piper » Mar 06, 2016 4:10 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
The_Piper wrote:The other explanations of it being a territorial behavior or adding to an aggressive display seem more plausible.
The stoner chimps. :teef:
...

I agree, and you are probably right, but there would then have to be an audience for the stone-throwing. Unfortunately, the OP article doesn't mention whether there was such an audience.

An audience for the behaviour of a social animal is obviously crucial, so it is unfortunate that the article seems to have been written by someone who doesn't understand that.

I don't think it's crucial for there to be another chimp close by, it could be done just in case there is one within earshot distance. Though the article and video are unclear. In the last segment of the video there is another chimp present, who appears to run away when the chimp at the tree hoots and screams. If there is wider and more lengthy footage it would be helpful to us.
The behavior of the one with the baby on it's back is compelling that it could be ritualistic. Or, it just decided not to make a lot of noise at that time.
Again with my red squirrel references, they will call out with a rattlesnake call (apparently) with or without another squirrel being nearby. (Of course red squirrels are vastly different from chimps and are solitary not social.)
I'm sure the researchers know a lot about chimp behavior and about these specific chimp populations.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#42  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 06, 2016 7:00 pm

I've seen teenage human boys exhibit much the same behaviour.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#43  Postby Alan B » Mar 06, 2016 7:05 pm

Therefore God. S'obvious, innit.

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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#44  Postby Hobbes Choice » Mar 06, 2016 7:08 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:This is another in long line of subjects which we History types have observed for eons now (well, none of us are eons old, but you know what I mean), which aren't nearly as illuminating or thought provoking in and of themselves, than they are illuminating about the OBSERVERS WHO ARE ARGUING ABOUT THE OBSERVATIONS.

Among our Archaeologist brethren, for example, there is a joke that whenever something is found on a dig, which doesn't obviously relate to some well-known industry, or immediate sexual conquest, that it should be described as being 'religious' in nature.
.


Oh contrare! Shit that is not explicable is "ritual deposition", which is more (um ) "objective".
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#45  Postby Hobbes Choice » Mar 06, 2016 7:16 pm

Scientists are only stumped because they are stupid enough to think that everything has to have an explanation. The fact is that we evolve in rather a haphazard way, that traits and behaviours that are useless, meaningless or puzzling can be preserved throughout the selection process, just so long as they do not adversely affect the ability to raise viable progeny.
And since evolution has provided primates with a plastic brain, the selection process is not in control of what stuff it does.
The evolutionary imperative of a male chimp is to implant his seed in a female, and hers is to care for her young until they can repeat the process.
Chimps do this very well - what they do in their spare time is up to them.
99% of human behaviour has basically nothing to do with reproductive success; such as me writing this post, whilst watching shit TV.
Why scientists are stumped, stumps me.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#46  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 07, 2016 7:18 am

The_Piper wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Not a single person has noticed the pun in the thread title? I thought you guys were better than that. I'm leafing :sigh:

Don't leave, just branch out. :shifty:

At least I can always count on you, Pipez.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#47  Postby tuco » Mar 07, 2016 1:44 pm

I suppose they are stumped because they ask "the why question":

Richard Feynman. Why.

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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#48  Postby Hobbes Choice » Mar 07, 2016 10:00 pm

tuco wrote:I suppose they are stumped because they ask "the why question":

Richard Feynman. Why.


The up-shot of what he says here, is nothing more than to admit that science is "description" par-excellence. Ultimately there are no explanations, only more and more finer descriptions.
Science describes using metaphor - using terms 'with which you are more familiar". In the end the shit is out there. Chimps have their own internal dialogue and feel like throwing a rock at a tree every now and again. And that is as good a desription as you are gonna get.
And next time you see a kid kicking a can, or clattering a stick on the railings as he walks, are you gonna get "stumped", or are you going to accept that he's just doing if for something to do because he feels like it.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#49  Postby tuco » Mar 07, 2016 10:06 pm

What I thought was related was when he tells the story about wife with broken hip or framework.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#50  Postby DavidMcC » Mar 11, 2016 2:02 pm

Hobbes Choice wrote:
tuco wrote:I suppose they are stumped because they ask "the why question":

Richard Feynman. Why.


The up-shot of what he says here, is nothing more than to admit that science is "description" par-excellence. Ultimately there are no explanations, only more and more finer descriptions.
...

Not so. There is more to it than description - there is also PREDICTION, without which science is incomplete. If you get to the stage of making a correct prediction that passes the test of experiment, you can be confident that you have some kind of explanation for the phenomenon.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#51  Postby DavidMcC » Mar 11, 2016 2:07 pm

The_Piper wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
The_Piper wrote:The other explanations of it being a territorial behavior or adding to an aggressive display seem more plausible.
The stoner chimps. :teef:
...

I agree, and you are probably right, but there would then have to be an audience for the stone-throwing. Unfortunately, the OP article doesn't mention whether there was such an audience.

An audience for the behaviour of a social animal is obviously crucial, so it is unfortunate that the article seems to have been written by someone who doesn't understand that.

I don't think it's crucial for there to be another chimp close by, it could be done just in case there is one within earshot distance. ...

If you prefer, but that is still "nearby" in the sense of being within hearing range. You were arbitraily applying an absolute distance scale on "nearby".

EDIT: If a chimp only hears the stone throwing, I doubt that he would respond on the assumption that it was by a member of his own troupe. Rather, I suspect that he would go and investigate the source of the sound before taking any other action.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#52  Postby The_Piper » Mar 11, 2016 2:15 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
The_Piper wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
The_Piper wrote:The other explanations of it being a territorial behavior or adding to an aggressive display seem more plausible.
The stoner chimps. :teef:
...

I agree, and you are probably right, but there would then have to be an audience for the stone-throwing. Unfortunately, the OP article doesn't mention whether there was such an audience.

An audience for the behaviour of a social animal is obviously crucial, so it is unfortunate that the article seems to have been written by someone who doesn't understand that.

I don't think it's crucial for there to be another chimp close by, it could be done just in case there is one within earshot distance. ...

If you prefer, but that is still "nearby" in the sense of being within hearing range. You were arbitraily applying an absolute distance scale on "nearby".

EDIT: If a chimp only hears the stone throwing, I doubt that he would respond on the assumption that it was by a member of his own troupe. Rather, I suspect that he would go and investigate the source of the sound before taking any other action.

I was focusing on your point that it's crucial for the chimp to have an audience. If the chimp is unseen how would the chimp know it had an audience? I said it might do it anyway just in case there was an audience.
If a chimp out of sight of the rock throwing chimp heard the banging as part of an aggressive display it might run away rather that investigate and potentially have a damaging fight on it's hands. That would be the point of the chimp doing the rock throwing in that idea. I don't want to speculate any deeper, since neither of us know what is going on.
Last edited by The_Piper on Mar 11, 2016 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#53  Postby DavidMcC » Mar 11, 2016 2:15 pm

The_Piper wrote:...
Again with my red squirrel references, they will call out with a rattlesnake call (apparently) with or without another squirrel being nearby. (Of course red squirrels are vastly different from chimps and are solitary not social.)
...

Perhaps that is because they have a target-dependent fear response? Forest monkeys do the same kind of thing. In their case, it informs other monkeys of what they need to do to guard against the threat being flagged, which is different for different threats.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#54  Postby The_Piper » Mar 11, 2016 2:30 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
The_Piper wrote:...
Again with my red squirrel references, they will call out with a rattlesnake call (apparently) with or without another squirrel being nearby. (Of course red squirrels are vastly different from chimps and are solitary not social.)
...

Perhaps that is because they have a target-dependent fear response? Forest monkeys do the same kind of thing. In their case, it informs other monkeys of what they need to do to guard against the threat being flagged, which is different for different threats.

Sorry for not being clearer, the rattlesnake or rattle call seems to be a territorial call, which is why I thought of it in relation to this thread.
https://books.google.com/books?id=jP2eBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT279&lpg=PT279&dq=red+squirrel+seet+call&source=bl&ots=gwr2KpaQr_&sig=NU6Qg_-q3s11RHe_5B5X6GlCfQU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivru6057jLAhUBWCYKHR43Clo4ChDoAQgcMAA#v=onepage&q=red%20squirrel%20seet%20call&f=false
Call is at 0:18
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#55  Postby DavidMcC » Mar 11, 2016 2:57 pm

Piper, I did not claim that all chimp calls require audience, only that the kind of call you were talking of (the dominance display) required an audience.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#56  Postby DavidMcC » Mar 11, 2016 3:02 pm

The_Piper wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
The_Piper wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
I agree, and you are probably right, but there would then have to be an audience for the stone-throwing. Unfortunately, the OP article doesn't mention whether there was such an audience.

An audience for the behaviour of a social animal is obviously crucial, so it is unfortunate that the article seems to have been written by someone who doesn't understand that.

I don't think it's crucial for there to be another chimp close by, it could be done just in case there is one within earshot distance. ...

If you prefer, but that is still "nearby" in the sense of being within hearing range. You were arbitraily applying an absolute distance scale on "nearby".

EDIT: If a chimp only hears the stone throwing, I doubt that he would respond on the assumption that it was by a member of his own troupe. Rather, I suspect that he would go and investigate the source of the sound before taking any other action.

I was focusing on your point that it's crucial for the chimp to have an audience. If the chimp is unseen how would the chimp know it had an audience? I said it might do it anyway just in case there was an audience.
If a chimp out of sight of the rock throwing chimp heard the banging as part of an aggressive display it might run away rather that investigate and potentially have a damaging fight on it's hands. That would be the point of the chimp doing the rock throwing in that idea. I don't want to speculate any deeper, since neither of us know what is going on.

This discussion has become confused. I am fairly confident that territorial displays are only performed by alpha males (maybe also rivals). Therefore, the likely response of such a chimp to any other displays/banging noises would be to investigate it rather than run away.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#57  Postby The_Piper » Mar 11, 2016 3:13 pm

DavidMcC wrote:Piper, I did not claim that all chimp calls require audience, only that the kind of call you were talking of (the dominance display) required an audience.
OK. I was speaking about it because the article mentioned that it could be the reason for the rock throwing and placing behavior.
I don't know anything about chimp behavior, at all, which is why I said I don't want to speculate any further. But here I go. :lol:
If dominance displays are only produced by an alpha male, then how would the alpha be replaced when he dies? The runner-ups would only do the displays after becoming alpha-male? What do you mean by rivals, rivals in the same group or neighboring ones?
DavidMcC wrote:This discussion has become confused. I am fairly confident that territorial displays are only performed by alpha males (maybe also rivals). Therefore, the likely response of such a chimp to any other displays/banging noises would be to investigate it rather than run away.

Not if the one hearing the display is not an alpha male though. Why would it only be another alpha male that hears the banging?
wouldn't the alpha male direct dominance displays to it's own group to keep them in line, as well as any outsiders, alpha male or not?
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#58  Postby DavidMcC » Mar 11, 2016 3:24 pm

The_Piper wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:Piper, I did not claim that all chimp calls require audience, only that the kind of call you were talking of (the dominance display) required an audience.
OK. I was speaking about it because the article mentioned that it could be the reason for the rock throwing and placing behavior.
I don't know anything about chimp behavior, at all, which is why I said I don't want to speculate any further. But here I go. :lol:
If dominance displays are only produced by an alpha male, then how would the alpha be replaced when he dies? The runner-ups would only do the displays after becoming alpha-male? What do you mean by rivals, rivals in the same group or neighboring ones?
...

I answered that above - the rival(s) would step in, and they would start displaying in earnest once the existing alpha died. Fights would probably break out between rivals, unless there was a clear front runner. (The big difference with the Republican Party elections is that physical harm isn't as likely to occur in those elections, so that there is no physical deterent (only financial) to rivals standing against Trump.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#59  Postby DavidMcC » Mar 11, 2016 3:31 pm

The_Piper wrote:... Why would it only be another alpha male that hears the banging?
wouldn't the alpha male direct dominance displays to it's own group to keep them in line, as well as any outsiders, alpha male or not?

Occasionally, not all of "its own group" would be in sight.
However, I do accept that the whole group would be aware of the banging, not just rivals or even just males, and I agree with that point. However, I always would have agreed. That is why I said things were confused.

EDIT: Going back to my original point, it is possible (though I don't know) that a lone chimp would throw stones at trees just to take out it's frustrations (at being alone, or otherwise)! That was why I didn't mention alpha males or rivals, or who might or might not hear the noise - it would not matter to such a chimp.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#60  Postby The_Piper » Mar 11, 2016 4:08 pm

Thanks for clarifying. Hopefully we'll have more footage to look at and insight from researchers as to what's going on. I'm sure chimp behavior is more complex than squirrels, and probably more complex than the Republican race for nomination. :mrgreen:
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