Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#61  Postby Alan B » Mar 11, 2016 5:00 pm

'Scientists are Stumped' (to use a media technical term). That's because they haven't sufficient data.

Once more data becomes available, the chances are that they will become less, er, 'stumped'.

Then the media will see chimps banging their heads on the ground (Muslim Chimps); Chimps kneeling with their hands together (Hindu or Christian Chimps); Chimps with bits of their dick missing (Jewish Chimps); vegetarian Chimps (Buddhist Chimps) and so on...
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#62  Postby Hobbes Choice » Mar 11, 2016 6:34 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:
tuco wrote:I suppose they are stumped because they ask "the why question":

Richard Feynman. Why.


The up-shot of what he says here, is nothing more than to admit that science is "description" par-excellence. Ultimately there are no explanations, only more and more finer descriptions.
...

Not so. There is more to it than description - there is also PREDICTION, without which science is incomplete. If you get to the stage of making a correct prediction that passes the test of experiment, you can be confident that you have some kind of explanation for the phenomenon.


Prediction is just a description of what shall happen. Ultimately there is no "reason" that things are the way they are.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#63  Postby DavidMcC » Mar 11, 2016 7:43 pm

Hobbes Choice wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:
tuco wrote:I suppose they are stumped because they ask "the why question":

Richard Feynman. Why.


The up-shot of what he says here, is nothing more than to admit that science is "description" par-excellence. Ultimately there are no explanations, only more and more finer descriptions.
...

Not so. There is more to it than description - there is also PREDICTION, without which science is incomplete. If you get to the stage of making a correct prediction that passes the test of experiment, you can be confident that you have some kind of explanation for the phenomenon.


Prediction is just a description of what shall happen. Ultimately there is no "reason" that things are the way they are.

No, it is a description of what is expected to happen IF the hypothesis is correct. If the real world does not bear out the prediction, then the hypothesis has failed. How is that "just a description"?
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#64  Postby Hobbes Choice » Mar 16, 2016 7:51 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:

The up-shot of what he says here, is nothing more than to admit that science is "description" par-excellence. Ultimately there are no explanations, only more and more finer descriptions.
...

Not so. There is more to it than description - there is also PREDICTION, without which science is incomplete. If you get to the stage of making a correct prediction that passes the test of experiment, you can be confident that you have some kind of explanation for the phenomenon.


Prediction is just a description of what shall happen. Ultimately there is no "reason" that things are the way they are.

No, it is a description of what is expected to happen IF the hypothesis is correct. If the real world does not bear out the prediction, then the hypothesis has failed. How is that "just a description"?


A hypothesis is descriptive of nature, obviously. Causality is a succession of events. One fucking thing after another. When two billiard balls hit each other they act as they always do, they do not have a reason for doing anything else, they do not decide to transform into a bowl of petunias or victimise the black ball.
It's sciences job to describe what they do. To have a reason to act would mean they chose to act, when in fact they are only determined by their nature to act as they do invariably.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#65  Postby laklak » Mar 16, 2016 8:30 pm

I've been shooting pool for over 50 years. Sometimes the goddamn things do whatever they want.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#66  Postby Hobbes Choice » Mar 17, 2016 5:35 pm

laklak wrote:I've been shooting pool for over 50 years. Sometimes the goddamn things do whatever they want.


So on topic - can you explain your strange behaviour in terms of Darwinian Evolution. Does the ability to play pool badly, increase the reproductive success of your genes. If so which ones?
Should scientists be stumped by your persistence in trying to get pretty coloured balls down holes, whilst avoiding potting other ones? Or is it obvious how this practice furnishes the ecosystem with lots of your viable progeny?
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#67  Postby DavidMcC » Mar 17, 2016 5:49 pm

Hobbes Choice wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
Hobbes Choice wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
Not so. There is more to it than description - there is also PREDICTION, without which science is incomplete. If you get to the stage of making a correct prediction that passes the test of experiment, you can be confident that you have some kind of explanation for the phenomenon.


Prediction is just a description of what shall happen. Ultimately there is no "reason" that things are the way they are.

No, it is a description of what is expected to happen IF the hypothesis is correct. If the real world does not bear out the prediction, then the hypothesis has failed. How is that "just a description"?


A hypothesis is descriptive of nature, obviously. Causality is a succession of events. One fucking thing after another. When two billiard balls hit each other they act as they always do, they do not have a reason for doing anything else, they do not decide to transform into a bowl of petunias or victimise the black ball.
It's sciences job to describe what they do. To have a reason to act would mean they chose to act, when in fact they are only determined by their nature to act as they do invariably.

No, HC, causality is NOT JUST a "succession of events". If it was, there would be no scientifoc theories, PREDICTING any events, and science would be like a large and growing stamp collection, ie, useless.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#68  Postby Hobbes Choice » Mar 17, 2016 11:09 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
No, HC, causality is NOT JUST a "succession of events". If it was, there would be no scientifoc theories, PREDICTING any events, and science would be like a large and growing stamp collection, ie, useless.


You post is NOT JUST rubbish; its also a complete straw man and misrepresentation of what I said. You must try harder.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#69  Postby DavidMcC » Apr 08, 2016 3:47 pm

Hobbes Choice wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
No, HC, causality is NOT JUST a "succession of events". If it was, there would be no scientifoc theories, PREDICTING any events, and science would be like a large and growing stamp collection, ie, useless.


You post is NOT JUST rubbish; its also a complete straw man and misrepresentation of what I said. You must try harder.

How so? You unambiguously claim that:
Hobbes Choice wrote:Prediction is just a description of what shall happen. Ultimately there is no "reason" that things are the way they are.

That misses out the essence of science: forming a hypothesis based on some evidene, then trying to make predictions based on reasoning and that evidence.

LATE EDIT: This thread is no longer about stone-throwing chimps. That is because it has been derailed by HC's bad philosophy of science.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#70  Postby laklak » Apr 09, 2016 3:10 am

Hobbes Choice wrote:
laklak wrote:I've been shooting pool for over 50 years. Sometimes the goddamn things do whatever they want.


So on topic - can you explain your strange behaviour in terms of Darwinian Evolution. Does the ability to play pool badly, increase the reproductive success of your genes. If so which ones?
Should scientists be stumped by your persistence in trying to get pretty coloured balls down holes, whilst avoiding potting other ones? Or is it obvious how this practice furnishes the ecosystem with lots of your viable progeny?


Dear God I hope not. Progeny are terribly expensive and highly overrated, and the little ones shit themselves regularly. However, playing pool, whether you're Fast Eddy or a rank amateur, does increase your odds of getting laid. Pool usually implies booze, and booze lubricates social (and more intimate) intercourse.

Perhaps my selfish genes are ultimately responsible for my younger self's obsession with shagging as many women as possible, but genes are actually pretty stupid. They don't understand condoms, for example.
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#71  Postby Gord » Apr 13, 2016 7:51 pm

Maybe the trees just smell bad. Maybe there are insects in the trees, and the trees sound funny. Maybe the trees said something about their mothers.

"We don't know therefore God" shouldn't be considered an answer.

I have a theory, but it only works for spherical chimps in a vacuum. :ask:

Alan B wrote:Then the media will see chimps banging their heads on the ground (Muslim Chimps); Chimps kneeling with their hands together (Hindu or Christian Chimps); Chimps with bits of their dick missing (Jewish Chimps); vegetarian Chimps (Buddhist Chimps) and so on...

...Chimps with rods and reels (fish'n' Chimps)....
Me: "'What' is a pronoun."
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Re: Stone-throwing chimps leave scientists stumped

#72  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Apr 13, 2016 8:32 pm

Gord wrote:
I have a theory, but it only works for spherical chimps in a vacuum. :ask:

:lol:
That sounds more like a model than a theory. And I suppose it's the sort of model where we leave out friction, too. So these would be abstinent spherical chimps in a vacuum.
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