Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

When do we have the right to intervene

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#61  Postby scott1328 » Oct 31, 2018 4:35 pm

hackenslash wrote:

My purpose is to further discourse, same as it ever was.

I'm out.

You don't sound to me like you are trying to further discourse. Merely expound. I'll leave you to it.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#62  Postby hackenslash » Oct 31, 2018 4:37 pm

Well, what I sound like to you and two shits will purchase for you precisely two shits.

Nice flounce, though.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#63  Postby surreptitious57 » Oct 31, 2018 4:39 pm

The problem with that is that your choices are severely limited if you have no way of ever leaving here
You either adapt to the environment and survive as best you can or accept the inevitable and let it win
Again there is no right or wrong way because it is entirely subjective
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#64  Postby surreptitious57 » Oct 31, 2018 4:47 pm

I find categories interesting here because you can be a nihilist or a misanthrope but not a depressive
The difference is that the first two are projecting externally while the latter is projecting internally
It is therefore not how you see reality but how reality affects you which is quite a subtle distinction
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#65  Postby The_Metatron » Oct 31, 2018 4:50 pm

hackenslash wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Macdoc wrote:It IS in the view of current society and the medical community.


On what basis? The only thing for which there are stats are people who don't complete or fail to. What's the evidence?

This is a beautiful combo fallacy, ad verecundiam and ad populum in spades. Until not too long ago, it was the view of society and the cosmology community that time and space began at the big bang, based on incomplete information. This situation is no different. Where are the data on the mental health of people who complete without warning, and how were they obtained?

I'd say you have to demonstrate it's not and is not harmful to society/others.


I'd say you have to ask yourself whether you'd apply this level of uncritical acceptance to anything else. This is a lovely commission of onus probandi.


By undertaking the act you absent yourself from censure and leave others to clean up the splatter. Toilet training generally occurs earlier.

How willing are you to harm others? :coffee:


Lovely argumentum ad consequentiam.

So, we've established now that your position is rooted in fallacy. Got anything more substantial?

Is the argument from consequence necessarily a fallacy?

We make decisions all the time after considering the consequences of our actions. All the time.


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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#66  Postby Cito di Pense » Oct 31, 2018 4:52 pm

hackenslash wrote:
What I actually advocate is 'I'm here for you and I accept you as you are, even to the degree that I'll be with you if and when you decide to complete'.

Without acceptance, we can't hope to encourage people to come forward and look for whatever help they may or may not need.


I can try to imagine myself doing something like that with all acceptance, and then again, I would not want to run the risk of being seen as an accessory to someone's demise by the decedent's survivors.

It's a long haul to de-stigmatizing suicide, and then it's just one more freedom the ongoing living will have to learn how to manage. Because of the diversity of situations you're aware of, this encompasses everything from quietly counseling or accepting to getting the mental health professions involved. If I'm honest, I want to be gone before I'm confined to long term care with nurses making daily investigations of my intake and output that sacrifice my privacy and dignity, and well before I'm intubated.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#67  Postby surreptitious57 » Oct 31, 2018 5:16 pm


I am a natural coward so I want to go as quickly and painlessly as possible
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#68  Postby hackenslash » Oct 31, 2018 6:07 pm

The_Metatron wrote:Is the argument from consequence necessarily a fallacy?


Yes, it is.

We make decisions all the time after considering the consequences of our actions. All the time.


Of course we do, but to argue that something is the case because of the consequences is always a fallacy, specifically a fallacy of relevance. The projected consequences of a statement being true has no bearing on the truth of the statement.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#69  Postby hackenslash » Oct 31, 2018 6:10 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:I can try to imagine myself doing something like that with all acceptance, and then again, I would not want to run the risk of being seen as an accessory to someone's demise by the decedent's survivors.


There's the rub, but I'd far rather give support than worry about how I'm seen by others.

It's a long haul to de-stigmatizing suicide, and then it's just one more freedom the ongoing living will have to learn how to manage. Because of the diversity of situations you're aware of, this encompasses everything from quietly counseling or accepting to getting the mental health professions involved. If I'm honest, I want to be gone before I'm confined to long term care with nurses making daily investigations of my intake and output that sacrifice my privacy and dignity, and well before I'm intubated.


Indeed.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#70  Postby hackenslash » Oct 31, 2018 6:11 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
I am a natural coward so I want to go as quickly and painlessly as possible


I'm more concerned with being in control of my destiny, TBH.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#71  Postby laklak » Oct 31, 2018 6:41 pm

I live in God's Waiting Room. I see the old toppies riding the assisted living bus to the grocery store, and they generally look pretty content. Maybe your criteria changes as you age. I can't imagine not being independently mobile or needing someone to help me take a shit, but I'm not there yet so I can't really judge. Problem is, by the time you get to the point that you want to end it you might not be able to. I don't think I can take my guns to the retirement home, and they don't let you keep your pills in your room. You eventually run out of options.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#72  Postby The_Metatron » Oct 31, 2018 8:04 pm

hackenslash wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:Is the argument from consequence necessarily a fallacy?


Yes, it is.

We make decisions all the time after considering the consequences of our actions. All the time.


Of course we do, but to argue that something is the case because of the consequences is always a fallacy, specifically a fallacy of relevance. The projected consequences of a statement being true has no bearing on the truth of the statement.

I don't agree.

While I wouldn't base a statement of fact on the consequences, we aren't discussing a matter of fact, but a matter of choice. A choice isn't true or false, it is chosen or it is not.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#73  Postby Doubtdispelled » Oct 31, 2018 8:57 pm

hackenslash wrote:
It's a constant battle, especially at the moment, because I'm fighting entire governments to solve my issues, and they, being governments, couldn't give a flying fuck about my problems.


I'm sorry, Hack, but I have to say ... Whut? or even Wtf? .....

Not just one government, but more than one, or even several?

JCOAFPS, but I must be getting old because I can't even begin to imagine any scenario which

Words actually fail me.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#74  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 31, 2018 9:06 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
It's a constant battle, especially at the moment, because I'm fighting entire governments to solve my issues, and they, being governments, couldn't give a flying fuck about my problems.


I'm sorry, Hack, but I have to say ... Whut? or even Wtf? .....

Not just one government, but more than one, or even several?

JCOAFPS, but I must be getting old because I can't even begin to imagine any scenario which

Words actually fail me.

Imi- and emigration issues, travel visa issues, to name just 2.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#75  Postby Doubtdispelled » Oct 31, 2018 9:08 pm

Ah, ok, thanks Thomas.

Yes, I am getting old then!
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#76  Postby Macdoc » Oct 31, 2018 10:18 pm

Hack
It's a constant battle, especially at the moment, because I'm fighting entire governments to solve my issues, and they, being governments, couldn't give a flying fuck about my problems.


We just have to suggest there really IS a conspiracy against him at an international level to keep him around :whistle:

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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#77  Postby TopCat » Nov 01, 2018 9:19 am

hackenslash wrote:Of course we do, but to argue that something is the case because of the consequences is always a fallacy, specifically a fallacy of relevance. The projected consequences of a statement being true has no bearing on the truth of the statement.

Sorry to wander OT a bit, but does it depend at all on the formulation of the statement?

For instance, we often hear arguments from theists along the lines of 'If God didn't exist, the universe would be meaningless and awful" - with an implied "therefore God exists'.

Clearly fallacious, but how about:

"I ought not to pig out on cake, because if I do, I'll get fat."

The first is obviously fallacious, but the second, not so much. The statement 'I ought not to' is superficially true because of its consequences.

Can you help me parse the difference?
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#78  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 01, 2018 9:40 am

TopCat wrote:
hackenslash wrote:Of course we do, but to argue that something is the case because of the consequences is always a fallacy, specifically a fallacy of relevance. The projected consequences of a statement being true has no bearing on the truth of the statement.

Sorry to wander OT a bit, but does it depend at all on the formulation of the statement?

For instance, we often hear arguments from theists along the lines of 'If God didn't exist, the universe would be meaningless and awful" - with an implied "therefore God exists'.

Clearly fallacious, but how about:

"I ought not to pig out on cake, because if I do, I'll get fat."

The first is obviously fallacious, but the second, not so much. The statement 'I ought not to' is superficially true because of its consequences.

Can you help me parse the difference?


It's not so much OT as you might assume. For your first example, "God does not exist" is not a statement that is obviously either true or false without some elaboration, so it's not suitable as a preamble to whether the universe is meaningless and awful. On the face of it, the universe is meaningless and awful, but you could also treat that as a statement that is neither true or false without some elaboration. This doesn't mean that your example is useless, but it isn't clearly fallacious on the basis of elaboration I've given. "The universe is meaningless and awful" is not a fact; it's an opinion. So, in summary, dressing opinions up to look like logical syllogisms is meaningless and awful, and saying the universe would be meaningless and awful UNLESS God exists is only as much as to say "I want God to exist". Then it's all about whether anyone cares what you want.

Your second example is also not a good one, because you will not necessarily get fat if you pig out on cake. Again, some elaboration is necessary. Maybe better is: "I ought not to pig out on cake because I don't want to become fat." Whether or not the consequence is likely, you get to give your reasons why you don't want to pig out on cake, due to something else you want.

In any event, to argue that something is the case because of some other consequences is a misuse of argument, a fallacy. People only have opinions on the topic of suicide, based on something else they want. Even "bodily autonomy" is just something that people want.

The whole "selfish and weak" epithet is someone's opinion about the consequences of someone else's suicide dressed up to look like an argument of some kind, and it does back up against "meaninglessness and awfulness". There's a whole cosmos (awful and meaningless though it may be) of assumptions about how one's life is or is not meaningful, or whether one's personal story loses punch if one suicides, and they depend too much on who's reading the story.

I don't want God to exist. I don't want God NOT to exist. What I want is for people not to want stuff that is neither here nor there. Will I get my wish? Not bloody likely.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#79  Postby hackenslash » Nov 01, 2018 10:18 am

The_Metatron wrote:While I wouldn't base a statement of fact on the consequences, we aren't discussing a matter of fact, but a matter of choice. A choice isn't true or false, it is chosen or it is not.


Except it was being proffered as support for one conclusion over the other, hence the fallacy. It's an appeal to the entirely irrelevant, which is ALWAYS fallacious when offered as support for a conclusion.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#80  Postby hackenslash » Nov 01, 2018 10:23 am

Doubtdispelled wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
It's a constant battle, especially at the moment, because I'm fighting entire governments to solve my issues, and they, being governments, couldn't give a flying fuck about my problems.


I'm sorry, Hack, but I have to say ... Whut? or even Wtf? .....

Not just one government, but more than one, or even several?

JCOAFPS, but I must be getting old because I can't even begin to imagine any scenario which

Words actually fail me.


IKR?

It's not that they're actually out to get me, but they're soul-crushingly unwilling to cut us any slack.

The tale is to be the subject of an upcoming book, The Redistributed Life. Two months, four Atlantic crossings, three refused border entries, 7,500 miles in a 20 year-old truck...

It's entirely probable that it will flop as unbelievable, yet every word of it is true. A tale of love and coffee.
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