Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

When do we have the right to intervene

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#81  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 01, 2018 10:26 am

hackenslash wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:While I wouldn't base a statement of fact on the consequences, we aren't discussing a matter of fact, but a matter of choice. A choice isn't true or false, it is chosen or it is not.


Except it was being proffered as support for one conclusion over the other, hence the fallacy. It's an appeal to the entirely irrelevant, which is ALWAYS fallacious when offered as support for a conclusion.


Granted, but the problem is more generally that people are dressing up their wishes as argumentation. So it goes, so it goes.

Saying it's fallacious argumentation is not incorrect, but it avoids the problem of confronting somebody else's wishes. Your point about suicide is that it's not necessarily going to be beholden to anyone else's wishes.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#82  Postby hackenslash » Nov 01, 2018 10:28 am

Indeed, and that the wishes of others are entirely irrelevant to the support we should provide.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#83  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 01, 2018 10:28 am

hackenslash wrote:It's not that they're actually out to get me, but they're soul-crushingly unwilling to cut us any slack.


What kinds of excuses are they offering, other than sticking to their rules? Guess I will have to read the book.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#84  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 01, 2018 10:33 am

hackenslash wrote:Indeed, and that the wishes of others are entirely irrelevant to the support we should provide.


I don't agree. The support I provide is not solely a function of what somebody else wants, but still considers it carefully. That's a key difference between the support I'd offer to those whose lives are impacted by a suicide or a potential suicide and the one contemplating ending it. Both faces can expect support, and that requires a willingness by all parties not to take sides. All that is possible is support, and it's not the same thing as taking sides.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#85  Postby hackenslash » Nov 01, 2018 10:50 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
hackenslash wrote:It's not that they're actually out to get me, but they're soul-crushingly unwilling to cut us any slack.


What kinds of excuses are they offering, other than sticking to their rules? Guess I will have to read the book.


Morons ticking boxes. They don't employ intelligent people to be border guards.

Example (from a US border guard):

MBG: What were you doing in Vancouver
Me: Visiting friends
MBG: Why
Me: Because they're friends.

I counted maybe 10 functioning neurons between them.

To be fair, the British ones were the worst. Cretins all.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#86  Postby hackenslash » Nov 01, 2018 10:51 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
hackenslash wrote:Indeed, and that the wishes of others are entirely irrelevant to the support we should provide.


I don't agree. The support I provide is not solely a function of what somebody else wants, but still considers it carefully. That's a key difference between the support I'd offer to those whose lives are impacted by a suicide or a potential suicide and the one contemplating ending it. Both faces can expect support, and that requires a willingness by all parties not to take sides. All that is possible is support, and it's not the same thing as taking sides.


I don't disagree with this.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#87  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 01, 2018 10:58 am

hackenslash wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
hackenslash wrote:It's not that they're actually out to get me, but they're soul-crushingly unwilling to cut us any slack.


What kinds of excuses are they offering, other than sticking to their rules? Guess I will have to read the book.


Morons ticking boxes. They don't employ intelligent people to be border guards.

Example (from a US border guard):

MBG: What were you doing in Vancouver
Me: Visiting friends
MBG: Why
Me: Because they're friends.

I counted maybe 10 functioning neurons between them, even though I believe their jobs are superfluous in my case.

To be fair, the British ones were the worst. Cretins all.


There is no upside to messing with border guards.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#88  Postby hackenslash » Nov 01, 2018 11:00 am

Indeed.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#89  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 01, 2018 11:08 am

hackenslash wrote:Indeed.


I've been, as an individual, through several rounds of trying to extend default visas or obtaining longer-term visas. It's easier to do, I guess, if a company is supporting you, but I never had that. This is, I think, high among the boxes the BGs are ticking.

It's a natural filter. If some company wants you over there, then over there is where you go, and fuck anyone who tries to stop you.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#90  Postby hackenslash » Nov 01, 2018 11:13 am

I'm lucky, in that I have a friend who's a department chair at a reputable UK university who's extending a formal invitation to my fiancée to come and discuss construction of software mapping solutions to track a particularly pernicious multi-strain virus to develop vaccination strategies, because one of the strains is easier to contract and harder to fight off when you're already carrying antibodies for the other. Once over the border, we have some minimal traction.

Still far from straightforward, and the words 'life, love and the pursuit of happiness' are little more than platitudes to officialdom, but it's a start.

Might end up both pissing off to Thailand to teach English as a foreign language.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#91  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 01, 2018 11:25 am

Well, what you need, it appears, is someone with specific experience in getting academic visas. I take it that your fiancée needs a visa to stay in the UK. My understanding is that these are fairly trivial if the plan is for a 1-year sabbatical or something. I assume it's quite another matter to have the unlimited visa unless someone is taken on as tenured or tenure-track faculty. What am I missing, here?
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Nov 01, 2018 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#92  Postby hackenslash » Nov 01, 2018 11:32 am

The problem is that she's already been refused entry once. It's complicated.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#93  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 01, 2018 11:33 am

hackenslash wrote:The problem is that she's already been refused entry once. It's complicated.


On what basis? It might not matter, but those might be the breaks, when the initial application has not been deemed appropriate. Perhaps the presumption was that it was an inappropriate visa application in the first place.

I don't make the rules, but I know all about systems whose only purpose is to find holes in your application.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Nov 01, 2018 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#94  Postby hackenslash » Nov 01, 2018 11:36 am

All will be revealed. We think we have it covered, at least initially.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#95  Postby Agrippina » Nov 02, 2018 12:16 pm

Hack, we spoke about this earlier this morning. As I told you, I was thinking about you earlier this week, and trying to figure out how to find out if anyone knew what had happened to you. Then you were back on Facebook, and I was pleased to see that. I'm happy for the news of your engagement, but sad that you're still having to fight battles to resolve real world issues. I truly hope you can figure it out, you deserve to be happy.

I have spoken at some length elsewhere about how traumatic this year has been for me, and how changing my entire life has, well, changed my life. I read through your blog post, twice, it is exactly what it is. Changing my life seemed selfish to the people who kept trying to help me fight my own depression, just like when I expressed not wanting to live, they said I was being "selfish" and "think of your kids, and grandkids". That's the point, you're actually not able to "think of..." you just want it to stop. But then the solution came to me, and after shock and horror, and accusations of "selfishness", and five months after the big move back home, it's still there, the sleeping dog, but I go into the garden to my son who is no longer a mess of self-loathing, I take him some tea, and a cheese scone, have a little chat about his studies, and I feel I've done the right thing, and the black dog goes back to sleep. So I get it. I'm able to be back here again, baby steps. Not quite up to having a roaring row with internet people just yet, but then last week I did take on a pair of trumpsters, so I'm getting there. At least I walked away when I'd said my piece, this is a good sign, not wanting to win the war, just that one battle. It does get better, you know it does. Just take one step at a time, and talk to people who care, who understand. As I said, I'm so pleased you're back. I missed you. :hugs:
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#96  Postby mattthomas » Nov 02, 2018 12:27 pm

You may be interested in this discussion from days gone by Hack

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post8 ... de#p851551
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#97  Postby hackenslash » Nov 02, 2018 12:49 pm

Agrippina wrote:Hack, we spoke about this earlier this morning. As I told you, I was thinking about you earlier this week, and trying to figure out how to find out if anyone knew what had happened to you. Then you were back on Facebook, and I was pleased to see that. I'm happy for the news of your engagement, but sad that you're still having to fight battles to resolve real world issues. I truly hope you can figure it out, you deserve to be happy.

I have spoken at some length elsewhere about how traumatic this year has been for me, and how changing my entire life has, well, changed my life. I read through your blog post, twice, it is exactly what it is. Changing my life seemed selfish to the people who kept trying to help me fight my own depression, just like when I expressed not wanting to live, they said I was being "selfish" and "think of your kids, and grandkids". That's the point, you're actually not able to "think of..." you just want it to stop. But then the solution came to me, and after shock and horror, and accusations of "selfishness", and five months after the big move back home, it's still there, the sleeping dog, but I go into the garden to my son who is no longer a mess of self-loathing, I take him some tea, and a cheese scone, have a little chat about his studies, and I feel I've done the right thing, and the black dog goes back to sleep. So I get it. I'm able to be back here again, baby steps. Not quite up to having a roaring row with internet people just yet, but then last week I did take on a pair of trumpsters, so I'm getting there. At least I walked away when I'd said my piece, this is a good sign, not wanting to win the war, just that one battle. It does get better, you know it does. Just take one step at a time, and talk to people who care, who understand. As I said, I'm so pleased you're back. I missed you. :hugs:



Thank you so much, my dear, dear friend. Glad to see you fight on, in whatever measure.

You know where to find me.
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#98  Postby Macdoc » Nov 02, 2018 3:05 pm

Engaged !!!?? Good lord ....a veritable saint is found. :whistle: :cheers:
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#99  Postby Agrippina » Nov 02, 2018 3:58 pm

hackenslash wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Hack, we spoke about this earlier this morning. As I told you, I was thinking about you earlier this week, and trying to figure out how to find out if anyone knew what had happened to you. Then you were back on Facebook, and I was pleased to see that. I'm happy for the news of your engagement, but sad that you're still having to fight battles to resolve real world issues. I truly hope you can figure it out, you deserve to be happy.

I have spoken at some length elsewhere about how traumatic this year has been for me, and how changing my entire life has, well, changed my life. I read through your blog post, twice, it is exactly what it is. Changing my life seemed selfish to the people who kept trying to help me fight my own depression, just like when I expressed not wanting to live, they said I was being "selfish" and "think of your kids, and grandkids". That's the point, you're actually not able to "think of..." you just want it to stop. But then the solution came to me, and after shock and horror, and accusations of "selfishness", and five months after the big move back home, it's still there, the sleeping dog, but I go into the garden to my son who is no longer a mess of self-loathing, I take him some tea, and a cheese scone, have a little chat about his studies, and I feel I've done the right thing, and the black dog goes back to sleep. So I get it. I'm able to be back here again, baby steps. Not quite up to having a roaring row with internet people just yet, but then last week I did take on a pair of trumpsters, so I'm getting there. At least I walked away when I'd said my piece, this is a good sign, not wanting to win the war, just that one battle. It does get better, you know it does. Just take one step at a time, and talk to people who care, who understand. As I said, I'm so pleased you're back. I missed you. :hugs:



Thank you so much, my dear, dear friend. Glad to see you fight on, in whatever measure.

You know where to find me.


I do indeed. Thrilled that you're there again. :hugs:
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Re: Suicide and Bodily Autonomy

#100  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 02, 2018 8:49 pm

Agrippina wrote:Hack, we spoke about this earlier this morning. As I told you, I was thinking about you earlier this week, and trying to figure out how to find out if anyone knew what had happened to you. Then you were back on Facebook, and I was pleased to see that. I'm happy for the news of your engagement, but sad that you're still having to fight battles to resolve real world issues. I truly hope you can figure it out, you deserve to be happy.

I have spoken at some length elsewhere about how traumatic this year has been for me, and how changing my entire life has, well, changed my life. I read through your blog post, twice, it is exactly what it is. Changing my life seemed selfish to the people who kept trying to help me fight my own depression, just like when I expressed not wanting to live, they said I was being "selfish" and "think of your kids, and grandkids". That's the point, you're actually not able to "think of..." you just want it to stop. But then the solution came to me, and after shock and horror, and accusations of "selfishness", and five months after the big move back home, it's still there, the sleeping dog, but I go into the garden to my son who is no longer a mess of self-loathing, I take him some tea, and a cheese scone, have a little chat about his studies, and I feel I've done the right thing, and the black dog goes back to sleep. So I get it. I'm able to be back here again, baby steps. Not quite up to having a roaring row with internet people just yet, but then last week I did take on a pair of trumpsters, so I'm getting there. At least I walked away when I'd said my piece, this is a good sign, not wanting to win the war, just that one battle. It does get better, you know it does. Just take one step at a time, and talk to people who care, who understand. As I said, I'm so pleased you're back. I missed you. :hugs:

All sounds very familiar. One step at a time. :cheers:
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