Taking responsibility for one's actions

is this possible for a free will denier?

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#641  Postby Pebble » Jan 14, 2017 3:18 pm

scott1328 wrote:

In fact YOU (not your brain, let's dispense with the dualism) build descriptions or narratives of experience. A narrative that is puzzled and interpolated from all the sense data that is pouring in from the outside and colored by your knowledge and experience.


Alternately

In fact brains (not you, let's dispense with the dualism) build descriptions or narratives of experience. A narrative that is puzzled and interpolated from all the sense data that is pouring in from the body and externally and colored by stored past events.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#642  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 14, 2017 3:22 pm

Pebble wrote:
scott1328 wrote:

In fact YOU (not your brain, let's dispense with the dualism) build descriptions or narratives of experience. A narrative that is puzzled and interpolated from all the sense data that is pouring in from the outside and colored by your knowledge and experience.


Alternately

In fact brains (not you, let's dispense with the dualism) build descriptions or narratives of experience. A narrative that is puzzled and interpolated from all the sense data that is pouring in from the body and externally and colored by stored past events.

Nice riposte, Pebble! :thumbup:
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#643  Postby archibald » Jan 14, 2017 3:24 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:Haven't you ever spent time with a dedicated procrastinator?


I've spent my entire life with one. Why do you think I'm wasting my time here when I should be usefully meditating?
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#644  Postby newolder » Jan 14, 2017 3:34 pm

Pebble wrote:
scott1328 wrote:

In fact YOU (not your brain, let's dispense with the dualism) build descriptions or narratives of experience. A narrative that is puzzled and interpolated from all the sense data that is pouring in from the outside and colored by your knowledge and experience.


Alternately

In fact brains (not you, let's dispense with the dualism) build descriptions or narratives of experience. A narrative that is puzzled and interpolated from all the sense data that is pouring in from the body and externally and colored by stored past events.


I don't understand this, could you please clarify? If the brain and individual are separate then one introduces dualism, no? :scratch:
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#645  Postby scott1328 » Jan 14, 2017 3:44 pm

Pebble is not disagreeing with me. He is simply restating what I wrote. How do I know this? David thinks Pebble is contradicting me.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#646  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 14, 2017 3:55 pm

scott1328 wrote:Pebble is not disagreeing with me. He is simply restating what I wrote. How do I know this? David thinks Pebble is contradicting me.

Did you not notice the subtle (but significant) change from your wording in Pebble's post that you claim supports you? Perhaps not.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#647  Postby scott1328 » Jan 14, 2017 4:19 pm

I guess we should let pebble speak for himself. Yet I find nothing in Pebble's comment that contradicts my view. Furthermore, he notably did NOT contradict my central point.

Perhaps you should just speak plainly and state how YOU think I am wrong.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#648  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 14, 2017 4:38 pm

scott1328 wrote:...

Perhaps you should just speak plainly and state how YOU think I am wrong.

This post of yours is the rejection of vision science:
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=53656&p=2514005#p2514005
The brain does not have to create special paint, only transfer existing cone signals from one part of the striate cortex to another, in much the same way as it fills in for the blind spot (which does not appear black, but instead takes on the colour(s) of the immediately surrounding area).
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#649  Postby newolder » Jan 14, 2017 4:39 pm

scott1328 wrote:Pebble is not disagreeing with me. He is simply restating what I wrote. How do I know this? David thinks Pebble is contradicting me.

A You (not your brain)
B Brains (not you)

In A, you is the product of a brain, its sense data input and memories that builds your narratives. You and your brain are distinct entities in nature.

In B, brains are not you. Brains use sense data and memories to build narratives that you relate. You and your brain are distinct, entities in nature.

A does not contradict B and both describe the dualism of you and your brain.

I know I’m a bit thick so where did I err?
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#650  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 14, 2017 4:44 pm

A simple experiment that you can do yourself shows this effect. If you keep one eye shut, and keep a small object in the field of view of your open eye, then slowly move it around until it happens to lie on the blind spot of your open eye, then it disappears, replaced by the surrounding colour(s).
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#651  Postby scott1328 » Jan 14, 2017 4:47 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
scott1328 wrote:...

Perhaps you should just speak plainly and state how YOU think I am wrong.

This post of yours is the rejection of vision science:
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=53656&p=2514005#p2514005
The brain does not have to create special paint, only transfer existing cone signals from one part of the striate cortex to another, in much the same way as it fills in for the blind spot (which does not appear black, but instead takes on the colour(s) of the immediately surrounding area).

You may or may not have a legitimate point. Leaving that aside for now, surely even you can see that your disagreement has nothing do with the comment Pebble actually made.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#652  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 14, 2017 4:53 pm

archibald wrote:...Iow, it seems all sorts of funny things can go on in the short time intervals involved in brain activity, and we shouldn't necessarily trust consciousness to provide an accurate picture. Not only is it probably 'the last to be informed', given that there appear to be time lags between activity and conscious awareness of it, but it can seemingly confabulate and rejig events post-dictum, and we end up feeling that something happened before something else and/or that we meant to do something.

This issue exists because we did not evolve with TV/monitor screen! I suspect that it is largely about vision (ie, optical ilusions), rather than conscious experience generally, because it is mainly with vision that this kind of experiment can be performed.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#653  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 14, 2017 4:56 pm

scott1328 wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
scott1328 wrote:...

Perhaps you should just speak plainly and state how YOU think I am wrong.

This post of yours is the rejection of vision science:
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=53656&p=2514005#p2514005
The brain does not have to create special paint, only transfer existing cone signals from one part of the striate cortex to another, in much the same way as it fills in for the blind spot (which does not appear black, but instead takes on the colour(s) of the immediately surrounding area).

You may or may not have a legitimate point. Leaving that aside for now, surely even you can see that your disagreement has nothing do with the comment Pebble actually made.

I must admit that when I read it after further comments had been made, it didn't seem to be the same as when I first read it. Could it have been editted significantly in the meantime? :dunno:
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#654  Postby archibald » Jan 14, 2017 5:09 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
archibald wrote:...Iow, it seems all sorts of funny things can go on in the short time intervals involved in brain activity, and we shouldn't necessarily trust consciousness to provide an accurate picture. Not only is it probably 'the last to be informed', given that there appear to be time lags between activity and conscious awareness of it, but it can seemingly confabulate and rejig events post-dictum, and we end up feeling that something happened before something else and/or that we meant to do something.

This issue exists because we did not evolve with TV/monitor screen! I suspect that it is largely about vision (ie, optical ilusions), rather than conscious experience generally, because it is mainly with vision that this kind of experiment can be performed.


Ahem. I cited four experiments and one phenomena; only that one was primarily about vision. :)

And that one, being consciously experienced vision, seems very pertinent to consciousness, especially if (as is suggested, and interpreted by some, including Daniel Dennett) the filling-in happens afterwards, but seems (consciously) to us to be before*. In other words, it appears not to be merely an optical illusion in the way that the others you mentioned are (eg blind spot). Our conscious experience seems to be a revisionist account of what just happened. This ability to confabulate is then explored in the 4 experiments, in situations where subjects feel they made choices but didn't (were duped).

*I am not claiming that we can be certain that the filling-in happens retrospectively, but that is what is suggested.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#655  Postby Pebble » Jan 14, 2017 6:58 pm

scott1328 wrote:Pebble is not disagreeing with me. He is simply restating what I wrote. How do I know this? David thinks Pebble is contradicting me.



I suppose what I was trying to do was to remove the 'you' as many have a tendency to treat consciousness as an emergent phenomenon, whereas more logically it is simply a brain function to facilitate rapid as well as planned responses to the sensed environment. Synthesizing all inputs to create a cohesive image of the immediate surroundings is the external narrative, but the senses and stored memories are also used to generate a self image - to differentiate the internal from the external, so as to interact appropriately and to allow more complex responses over time. In this way the internal narrative is 'self awareness' with no need for consciousness to represent anything special.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#656  Postby scott1328 » Jan 14, 2017 7:06 pm

I don't view consciousness as a "function" of the brain. To me, it is a label we put on a mixed bag of faculties, abilities, and predispositions.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#657  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 14, 2017 7:18 pm

scott1328 wrote:I don't view consciousness as a "function" of the brain. To me, it is a label we put on a mixed bag of faculties, abilities, and predispositions.

That sounds like a very out-dated view of the brain - that it was just for cooling the blood, or something!
Also, are not all of your mixed bag of faculties resident in the brain? If not, then where? Between your legs, perhaps? :lol:
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#658  Postby Thommo » Jan 14, 2017 7:23 pm

Do you really think it sounds like that's what he said?
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#659  Postby Pebble » Jan 14, 2017 7:24 pm

archibald wrote:Some interesting experiments and phenomena which might suggest one way the illusion of choice operates:


Taking just one of these http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0956797616641943

The experiments both relied on asking people to perform a task as rapidly as possible, and repeating this same task multiple times (280). The observation that choices were biased (for whatever reason) dominantly when the delay between the test began and the colour revealed was < 300ms.
The conclusion that the conscious choice had been made, but that the unconscious contributed to the decision - is valid, but hardly surprising. When we are performing automated tasks we rely heavily on our unconscious for apparently conscious decisions. Any rapid and repetitive task should elicit this precise response. What it provides no insight into is apparent 'deliberate' choice making with time to analyse. That would be the real experiment.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#660  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 14, 2017 7:25 pm

Pebble wrote:
scott1328 wrote:Pebble is not disagreeing with me. He is simply restating what I wrote. How do I know this? David thinks Pebble is contradicting me.


...
In this way the internal narrative is 'self awareness' with no need for consciousness to represent anything special.

Why are you apparently trying to distinguish between the "internal narrative" and your consciousness of your own body. :scratch:
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