The Gender Equality Paradox

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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#21  Postby archibald » Jan 29, 2019 9:55 am

Evolving wrote:I was being ironic. As the possessor of a female brain.


Gotcha.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#22  Postby archibald » Jan 29, 2019 9:59 am

Evolving wrote:
archibald wrote:...I am quite happy to give them anything...


That's a gallant thought, but let's just go for justice and fairness from now on.


I hope you are not using 'gallant' as a pejorative involving suggestions of benevolent sexism. :)

Of course, no one, including me, can know for sure when their opinions contain traces of that, but for a variety of reasons, some to do with my early experiences, I am genuinely predisposed to thinking highly of women, possibly more than men. Maybe it's a bias. But I think it's also an informed one, to do with observing the world as an adult.

Or, assuming you weren't implying anything adverse, I generally agree that justice and fairness is the better way to go, by and large, but I am also less against 'affirmative action' interventions than some are.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#23  Postby Evolving » Jan 29, 2019 10:22 am

It's sometimes tempting to think that women could do a better job running the world than men have been doing, but I don't think the evidence bears that out. I'm not impressed, for instance, by your first minister.

We should all get a fair chance, that's all.

Btw: I've read a number of posts by you recently that I liked a lot.

EDIT: just remembered that she's not first minister any more. You know who I meant, anyway.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#24  Postby archibald » Jan 29, 2019 10:35 am

Evolving wrote:It's sometimes tempting to think that women could do a better job running the world than men have been doing, but I don't think the evidence bears that out. I'm not impressed, for instance, by your first minister.

We should all get a fair chance, that's all.

Btw: I've read a number of posts by you recently that I liked a lot.

EDIT: just remembered that she's not first minister any more. You know who I meant, anyway.


Theresa May? I think she's still Prime Minister. I quite like her, but I'm not particularly fond of politicians generally, so perhaps I only dislike her less than some of the others who could have become PM instead of her.

Yes, we would not know if women would or wouldn't make a better job of running the world (assuming they would even want to, I personally would not, lol) until it happened, which it isn't all that likely to do in my lifetime.

And even if they did run the world, they'd probably have to contend with a relcalitrant male backlash.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#25  Postby Evolving » Jan 29, 2019 10:39 am

I was referring to Arlene Foster. :)
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#26  Postby archibald » Jan 29, 2019 10:43 am

Evolving wrote:I was referring to Arlene Foster. :)


Whoops again. I'm a bit slow this morning and may need more coffee. :)

Don't start me on Arlene Foster, or her Party. Please. We'll be here all day. They are, collectively, a national embarrassment, imo. Assuming we are a nation, which we arguably aren't.

Though, again, I would have to say something similar about even her. In some ways I like her compared to those (men) who might have been in her place. Ditto on the other side of the 'fence' for Michelle O'Neill. Unlike for example Gerry Adams, I am not aware of her ever having murdered anyone. Which may support my general point/bias. Or not. :)
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#27  Postby archibald » Jan 29, 2019 11:14 am

scott1328 wrote:I think the problem when attempting to compare disjoint groups is the arbitrary nature of the division into the groups.

It seems to me the error comes with the presumption that genetic gender is the correct way to split humans into groups for most if not all types of comparisons.

Much as it is incorrect to use perceived or presumed race to split humans into groups for most if not all types of comparisons.


Just to pick up on this...

I think I agree with the general idea. Good point, imo. Splitting humans by sex (or race as you say) is an initially/superficially 'obvious' way to split humans (if and when we split them) but men and women may not be (probably aren't) on the two sides of the 'lines' across which humans mostly differ, and as such may not be the most useful categories for many comparisons.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#28  Postby archibald » Jan 29, 2019 11:21 am

Neurosexism
http://sjwiki.org/wiki/Neurosexism

An interesting and relatively new term, used (perhaps coined, I'm not sure) by psychologist/philosopher/writer Cordelia Fine, one of the participants in the radio discussion linked to above.

Whether the term is more useful than not, I don't know. I could see it being abused, used as a pejorative, when it may not accurately describe a point of view. That's already sometimes true for the term sexism, imo.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#29  Postby Hermit » Jan 29, 2019 11:22 am

archibald wrote:That man, the one voice-acted at the start of the radio discussion I posted above, he was the inventor of sociology or something

Or something. Gustave Le Bon did write about sociology, beginning in the 1890s. Auguste Comte is regarded as the progenitor of the academic discipline of sociology. As the formulator of positivism he is actually regarded as the progenitor of just about every field of knowledge with any pretensions to be scientific in the modern sense. He died in 1857.

On the strength of originality and innovation Émile Durkheim, Karl Marx and Max Weber are regarded as the founders of the academic discipline of sociology. Le Bon is not so much remembered for originality or innovation in the field than the opinions we now feel to be so outrageous. He was essentially doing not much more than verbosely publishing and promoting personal opinion. As such, he resembles more my personal bête noire, Otto Weininger, than being an actual sociologist. And yes, I have likened Peterson to almost a carbon copy of Weininger in the other thread.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#30  Postby archibald » Jan 29, 2019 11:24 am

Hermit wrote:
archibald wrote:That man, the one voice-acted at the start of the radio discussion I posted above, he was the inventor of sociology or something

Or something. Gustave Le Bon did write about sociology, beginning in the 1890s. Auguste Comte is regarded as the progenitor of the academic discipline of sociology. He died in 1857. On the strength of originality and innovation Émile Durkheim, Karl Marx and Max Weber are regarded as the founders of the academic discipline of sociology. Le Bon is not so much remembered for originality or innovation in the field than the opinions we now feel to be so outrageous. He was essentially doing not much more than verbosely publishing and promoting personal opinion. As such, he resembles more my personal bête noire, Otto Weininger, than being an actual sociologist. And yes, I have likened Peterson to almost a carbon copy of Weininger in the other thread.


Useful, thanks. Good catch.

Perhaps a tad potentially misleading then, to describe him the way he was described in that audio (as 'a founder of social psychology')?

And not, as I had wrongly remembered, the inventor of sociology.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#31  Postby Hermit » Jan 29, 2019 11:54 am

archibald wrote:Perhaps a tad potentially misleading then, to describe him the way he was described in that audio (as 'a founder of social psychology')?

While ABC Radio National is the best network in the world, its charter is not to alienate its audience with academically precise minutiae of scholarship. It is, among other things, tasked with making knowledge accessible, and despite repeated attempts by conservative Australian governments we are periodically electing to destroy it, remarkably good at doing exactly that. I find it really easy to forgive its inaccuracies.

Please keep in mind the nature of the links you quote, though. For instance, All in the Mind, the program the podcast has been lifted from, is basically a sort of highbrow version of infotainment, as are most of the others, such as The Science Show, The Law Report, The Philosopher's Zone, more obviously Late Night Live and so forth.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#32  Postby archibald » Jan 29, 2019 1:13 pm

Hermit wrote:
archibald wrote:Perhaps a tad potentially misleading then, to describe him the way he was described in that audio (as 'a founder of social psychology')?

While ABC Radio National is the best network in the world, its charter is not to alienate its audience with academically precise minutiae of scholarship. It is, among other things, tasked with making knowledge accessible, and despite repeated attempts by conservative Australian governments we are periodically electing to destroy it, remarkably good at doing exactly that. I find it really easy to forgive its inaccuracies.

Please keep in mind the nature of the links you quote, though. For instance, All in the Mind, the program the podcast has been lifted from, is basically a sort of highbrow version of infotainment, as are most of the others, such as The Science Show, The Law Report, The Philosopher's Zone, more obviously Late Night Live and so forth.


Thanks. That's useful context.

I am going to admit to having had fleeting, in some ways shameful thoughts regarding that radio discussion, which, perhaps, the slight skew applied to Gustav le Bon might now have reinforced. It was I'm fairly sure coincidental that the host and both guests were women. As such (and I'm putting my neck on a very wobbly block here) it would in some ways be natural if the 'bad' side of gender essentialism was emphasised and perhaps, as the net 'recipients' of the drawbacks of that (gender essentialism) women might by inclination be more sceptical of the science that appears or purports to sustain it.

Two big caveats to that would be (a) that none of the women in the discussion struck me as anything other than balanced, erudite and reasonable and (b) in the other link, there was a man (or perhaps men) making many of the same essential points, most notably that the jury is still out and more good science needs to be done.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#33  Postby felltoearth » Jan 31, 2019 2:47 pm

Evolving wrote:It's sometimes tempting to think that women could do a better job running the world than men have been doing, but I don't think the evidence bears that out. I'm not impressed, for instance, by your first minister.

We should all get a fair chance, that's all.

Btw: I've read a number of posts by you recently that I liked a lot.

EDIT: just remembered that she's not first minister any more. You know who I meant, anyway.

I know a lot of female partners in my profession who are out and out assholes and very nasty pieces of work. My guess is either because their personality was suited for the system or they had to adapt to it to get there. A conservative won't change the system as it is too oriented to individual conformity to accepted authority (oh the irony of neoliberalism and the individual.) It's going to come from forced systematic change from the outside.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#34  Postby Rumraket » Feb 01, 2019 12:07 am

How's this one for a paradox?:

If lots of men are biologically programmed to find women psychologically intolerable as leaders, should women lead them?

:lol:
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#35  Postby scott1328 » Feb 01, 2019 1:31 am

You will find that those very same men are psychologically incapable of tolerating any leader.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#36  Postby Rumraket » Feb 01, 2019 9:56 am

I don't think so. They all seem to be madly in love with Dear Leader Trump.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#37  Postby archibald » Feb 01, 2019 12:52 pm

Apparently a lot of them can secretly find it a turn on. See: Margaret Thatcher being sexy and also 'Mistress Dominatrix Dungeon'.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#38  Postby archibald » Feb 01, 2019 1:06 pm

Image

Reminds me of the title of a very good (imo) music CD, "Do You Like My Tight Sweater?"

and

How Maggie learned to power dress until she was even considered sexy
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/how-mag ... 04277.html

Image

Spot the hidden boners?
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#39  Postby Evolving » Feb 01, 2019 1:48 pm

Her illustrious predecessor, Boner Law.
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Re: The Gender Equality Paradox

#40  Postby surreptitious57 » Feb 01, 2019 2:53 pm

I think that the gender question is essentially irrelevant because what ultimately matters is psychology
The qualities that make great female leaders are exactly the same ones that make great male leaders
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